Retail j.HP vs Beta j.HP

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by KhaosMuffins, Mar 12, 2014.

?

Old (retail) j.HP or New j.HP

  1. Old j.HP

    21.1%
  2. New j.HP

    60.5%
  3. Indecisive

    18.4%
  1. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    Or corner to corner for 8.1 without assist.
     
  2. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    What's that?


    Please let that not be starting with s.lk > s.hp.
     
  3. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    If this is starting with st.LK > st.HP or a heavy then I'm gonna slap you. (Share please)
     
  4. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    Is that gonna be a thing I'm never gonna live down? :P (Gimme a sec)
     
  5. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    Mkay.

    Corner-to-corner, no assist

    s.LK, s.MK, s.HP, L Fiber, j.HP ADC j.HP, M Axekick, s.HP, L Fiber, j.MP, j.HP ADC j.MK, M Axekick, s.LPx2, s.LK, s.MP, s.MK, s.HP, Rekka, Super

    From what I've practiced:
    • Bella's hitbox makes L Fiber whiff if the end of your ground chain is HP
    • This combo will not OTG Double at all if you time your last ADC right
    • Timing variance during the first portion of the combo may result in whiffing the second Fiber against Squigly. If you use M Fiber when this happens, you'll only "tip" her with the second hit, which won't allow you to follow-through (Is that even intentional?)
    • This combo does upwards of 8k w/o assist on most of the cast. Against Bella (whom we'd have to use s.HK on if we want to land L Fiber), it's about 7.4k if you do full s.HK before the Fibers.... Stupid hitboxes.
     
  6. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    If I use s.hp in the first chain I get 8.8k :P


    (copter ftw)
     
  7. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    I will shave you >.>
     
  8. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Jump back headspike is equally as safe, and no one had a headless to head on combo (other than ending with a lvl 3, which you can still do) so I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was easier.

    It's probably better to take the head off while in neutral. Head spike combos do less damage, and its a nice little air fireball. Hell, you don't even get reset potential from headspike combos because head on resets are really strong. I'm beginning to think that the only transition combos worth doing are normal head on combos that end with a burstable knockdown and a head spike. I don't see the value of them otherwise.
     
  9. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    Am I missing something because I'm only getting 7.4k on my end.

    EDIT: Derp, didn't realize the it was HP and not HK in the first chain.

    Because you can go into stuff like this


    That reset point works midscreen too and is like at a +5 frame advantage on-top of having the opponent sandwiched.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  10. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    As it has always been... (open)
    [​IMG]
     
  11. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Errr you're actually quite a bit off on this.
     
  12. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    I was also taking into consideration that we would get the new j.hp. Lately headless has been getting more reset tech yes, so it has become more likely that headless resets are stronger, but I still have my doubts. The various head on IAD, cross up j.hp (which doesn't even look like a cross up), and the stuff that will be coming out of the new knockback of j.hp. I don't know which part you are saying I'm wrong about, I know those combos don't do that much damage compared to full head on unless you opt to use more meter. I just assumed you meant the reset part.
     
  13. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    If you jump back and throw off your head your opponent can do things still, if you take it off as part of a combo then they cannot. If you want to put the head back on then you're going to have to give your opponent some breathing room. Therefore it is easier to go headless than to get the head back on so there is a missing equality there. My desire is that going from head on to headless requires you to slow down for a moment and give your opponent a little bit of breathing room, just as going from headless to head on does.
     
  14. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    I don't see that happening, also double butt/any lock down assist exists so you don't ever NEED to let off the pressure to get head off (not to mention head roll being +1 and jump back head spike being used only while you are already in neutral). And putting the head back on will always be more difficult because the head will always be in different positions all across the screen, unless you drastically nerf both head roll and head spike somehow. You haven't really articulated a point other than your desire to make these attacks worse.

    Why exactly do you want the transition to be difficult? Is it just one more place she can be nerfed?
     
  15. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    But.... Head Roll is -2 in current Beta.
     
  16. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    He changed that back. The line in the patch notes is still there but it has an addendum. Because last time I did the super cancelled into a head roll the screen said +1, and that was last night.
     
  17. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    He didn't change the part where it's -2 on block; that's what I was referring to. I just tested it.
     
  18. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    A raw headroll on block is still -2

    Connected headroll as a super follow up in the corner is +1

    Would it be too much to ask for it not triggering undizzy burst if you follow up with it?
     
  19. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    This is the entire reason right here. If you want to know why that is the reason then you might be disappointed that it's not that I want to shift any sort of balance and more about what I think would be more enjoyable.

    Anyway, making the switch to each state more risky, in addition to the current changes that have significant differences between head on and head off that make the 2 have separate uses, would make managing your head state a far more important part of her play style than it is now. I specifically think that being able to remove the head without any issue means that when you're headless and feel like you might need an invul reversal option then you don't lose too much if you make a mistake since you can just throw off the head later with absolutely no cost whatsoever.

    Fortunately, half of Fortune already fits what I want (which once again I shall stress I only want for selfish desires relating to the direction of the character), since getting the head on is a bit of a hassle. What I would like is not even for taking the head off to be as huge a hassle as getting it on is, simply that you don't have the option to do it for absolutely no cost whatsoever.

    Also I tried to cut down on my words earlier since this thread isn't really about what we'd like to see from Fortune in the future and that would be why I hadn't been particularly clear about this.
     
  20. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Air super -> sneeze does that too, and has since Undizzy was added...so yes. Both are intentional, so that you can't do full undizzy chain rekka super to stance switch for free.
    You...play this character, right? :^P
     
  21. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    Does it? I rarely end a combo with Feral Edge unless I know it will ko so I don't remember triggering it. That makes sense though.
     
  22. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    But you can combo after if you sneeze.

    Why not make cat spike after super a ~4 frame link?
     
  23. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure Mike added the sneeze followup as a tradeoff to losing the ridiculous ground bounce from the old headspike.

    Do you mean headroll after super?
     
  24. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Because you don't get an untechable knockdown from Feral Edge.

    I am not here to argue.
     
  25. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    yeah, my bad.
     
  26. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    You can do s.hk cross unders from the regular launcher now. That's nice.

    Also it makes my bnb work on big band and double without even using the restand...I am so happy right now.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  27. Vladislav_Paizis

    Vladislav_Paizis On hiatus from SG

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    I'm a bit sad that my old Fortune BnB doesn't work, but I'll just learn some new ones. I'm okay with the new j.HP.
     
  28. NightFall

    NightFall New Member

    Ms. Fortune
    I've tested some things , for a couple of time , and here's minuses of new j.hp , which in my opinion is the most criticals :

    1)Air neutral gameplay.
    i think it's been reduced as compared with non-beta version of game and mostly because of knockback , wich makes unacceptable to do j.hp-axe kick thingy (this thingy allows ya to lift your enemy to the ground and start combo 'em almost form any position at air).
    Here's example of retail version , when j.hp-axe kick's workin' :

    As ya can see , it's a simple , doog-damaging combo with a few resets , and it can be done almost from anywhere in air.
    Here's example of new version :
    As ya can see , it's a lil' low-damagin' and it cannot be done almost from anywhere.
    Another example of new version :
    Unlike the first one , this one can be almost from every position in the air , but highly reduced damage and dangerous possibility of spendin' 1 meter of tension to empty , and then gettin' roughly punished.

    All of this just makes solo-fortune players forget 'bout air neutral game and start pickin' tags , because duuh , sit in block and press assist button , 300% easier that jumpin' and tunnin' 'round.

    2)Mash Out of resets.
    New j.hp knockback makes your rival fall down much faster , then retail version , right ? And so , characters with "only ground" specials and blockbusters may mash out from resets much easier , than before , here's what i'm talkin 'bout :

    This's retail version , of course. As ya can see (damn those repeats) Cerebella have only a few-frame-window to do her special , or blockbuster , whatever she wants.

    Now THIS what i call "don't be shy , mash it , pretty boy" , because of SO huge frame-window.

    More 'bout this paragraph : i'm not talkin' that ya can't do this mash-out , but in retail-version case there's less chance of successful mash-out.

    3)Great-damagin' combo.
    Well , this combo is not intented to be daily , and ya definetely have a chance of 1 to 100 to have opportunity to do it , but it's still nicely :

    13.4k ,
    isn't that great ? that's a damn ace in Nadia's sleeve , this thing may turn battle in your benefit. And i'm pretty sure that even close-damagin' combo can't be done with this new j.hp.

    Conclusion : Before ya say : "hey , but combos with new j.hp is much easier" , or "it has more reset options" , don't forget that Nadia Fortune is not a combo-character , she have all movement options not just because reasons. Her best side is neutral game (headless and head-on'd) , so why do we need all this damage or resets if her neutral game options will be reduced ? Of course if ya play in tag and just doin' your block-assist stuff ya don't even spot a difference , but let's not forget 'bout other players , solo-fortune players. It's really hard to play as solo-fortune , and with this j.hp and beta changes it's gonna be impossible to play as solo-fortune.

    PS:I'm not argue 'bout reducin' damage and changin' her hitstun , it's ok. What really should be remain untouched it's knockback. This's the last thing that separates solo-fortune from tag-fortune.

    PPS: Difficulty of combos is not an argument , every combo may be learned as well , it's just takes some times.

    PPPS: I'm really sorry for my level of speakin' english language ;~;
     
  29. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    You're still not gonna hit with j.HP much air-to-air because, despite it being faster, the range still isn't that good so your go to air-to-air normals are still j.LK and j.MP (j.HK is still meh). The speed change really just made it a better jump-in and instant overhead (you can do fuzzy guard setups with it now). Also keep in mind that j.HP does more damage in retail than the beta.

    As for the reset part, that can be fixed by just doing stuff > j.MK(1) > whiff cancel into j.HP or j.HK. Change up how your reset works a bit or explore new options.

    For the last bit:

    You actually get 13,328 damage if you omit the j.HK at the start. Whoops.
     
    CaioLugon likes this.
  30. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    It's not fair if you use lv3...



    14019 optimized.
     
    KhaosMuffins likes this.
  31. NightFall

    NightFall New Member

    Ms. Fortune
    1)I think that retail j.hp is one of the best air-to-air hit (among all characters) (of course if you've got an accurate eye) , also if ya'll hit confirm with that hit , well it's almost 100% chance that ya could perform axe kick an continue combo on ground. If it's gonna be -2f on startup with old knockback , i guess it's gonna be ... the best air-to-ar hit ? 'f course not , but the best Nadia's air-to-air hit with no doubt.

    2)Yeah , i haven't forgot 'bout other resets , and in my opinion there's much less options of resets , or to do 'em more safer. And this stuff->j.mk(1) may be done in retail version as well.

    3)In beta version this may be up to ~14150 , so i agree on that part.
     
  32. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    s.LK, s.HP as OTG? Don't think I didn't catch that :P
     
  33. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    c.lk :P
     
  34. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Ya, I didn't even think of using cr.HP. I'm so used to OTG'ing like that.
     
  35. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    I like the new j.HP in terms of neutral but still preferred the combos with the old j.HP hitstun/knockback. Not a fan of the new head on bnb, it still feels super awkward to do compared to the old ones, but the IAD j.HP as an ambiguous crossup is a lot better.

    I don't think the new version has enough hitstun to make it viable for air to air confirms, but maybe I'm missing something.
     
  36. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    The problem was never whether or not it had a2a confirmability, because the hitbox doesn't lend itself to being used as an a2a.
     
  37. NightFall

    NightFall New Member

    Ms. Fortune
    Actually , j.hp has wider and longer hitbox , than j.mp (wich is her #2 air-to-air hit in my mind). j.mk makes your opponent knokback'd into space and j.lp-j.lk is way too fast to be reacted on. That's why j.hp's the beast air-to-air and air-to-ground hit , but in beta version it's only air-to-ground , so it's kinda loose of universality of this hit.

    PS:I think we should allow to vote only for people who's playing Nadia Fortune
     
  38. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    j.MP is faster and if you look at the hitbox in training mode, you can see that she does not have vulnerable hitboxes in the space where the move is active. j.HP has vulnerable hurtboxes (where she can get hit) that poke out of the hitboxes, so j.HP loses to a lot of character's go-to air-to-air normals. j.MK can easily go into her axe kick, same with j.LK.

    I can see who is voting (not sure if others can), and the large majority of voters are Fortune players.

    Don't read too much into me calling it the new BnB. The best BnB is whatever works for you (as long as it does over 7k, hehe).
     
  39. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Vote's done btw, it's already decided, you had weeks.
    (^.^)

    I do my best but we gotta submit the game SOMETIME.
     
  40. BiancaLovesFFIX

    BiancaLovesFFIX *Get Ready!*

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    Nice combos you did there.
     

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