Pocket Rumble Thread

Discussion in 'Other Fighting Games' started by Liam, Sep 5, 2014.

  1. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    I would like to see video of this being played by people who habitually play fighting games. I have a mental imagine of how that would go in my head, but I really want to see it actually in motion.

    You should give us a build for Combo Breaker.
     
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  2. PocketRumbleDev

    PocketRumbleDev New Member

    I'm sure there will be a few people who will stream the alpha that's coming in the next week or two.
     
  3. Eryx Blue

    Eryx Blue NYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! :3

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    I actually thought this game was also for IOS.
     
  4. PocketRumbleDev

    PocketRumbleDev New Member

    Nope, PC only at the moment. We'll probably get enough money for me to buy a Mac during early access so it'll probably end up on Mac as well before launch (from what I understand converting GGPO to something other than a DLL shouldn't be too bad once we have the actual source).

    Vita/3DS are also an option but both require us to get an SDK, and apparently 3DS SDKs cost a ton so that particular port is looking less and less likely (even though our new native resolution is 3DS resolution just in case).
     
  5. Eryx Blue

    Eryx Blue NYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! :3

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    Awww man....
     
  6. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    I'd be pretty cool if it was a mystery game at combo breaker.
     
  7. Eryx Blue

    Eryx Blue NYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! :3

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    If it was.....

    Would you challenge me?

    Show Spoiler
    If the game is not on IOS. Then I won't.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
  8. PocketRumbleDev

    PocketRumbleDev New Member

    Well if this is something that could actually happen, someone should email us or DM me about that. The game is still too unpolished for it to be streamed at a big event without that being a mostly negative thing for the "image" of the game or whatever, but idk maybe we could just do it anyway.
     
  9. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    Parasoul
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    Mystery game stuff is probably already decided, but I guess there's no harm in asking @thehadou.

    That wouldn't really get you any valuable info, though, mystery game stuff is 100% just for fun, nobody's taking it that seriously. What I was saying is that if you want a bunch of people to put it through its paces, you could just give us a copy to play test at the event. I think the value of a test like that is apparent.
     
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  10. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    It would be hype as shit if Pocket Rumble was the Mystery Game grand finals game.

    Might even launch its popularity like it did for Lethal League.

    Looking forward to getting the alpha build so I can test it out and give concrete examples of things.
     
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  11. Mr. X

    Mr. X Groovy Gameplay Mod Lead

    Huge public testing getting recorded would help find a bunch of bugs or things you don't want to happen.

    Moved to Other Fighting Games
     
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  12. FuLLBLeeD

    FuLLBLeeD KC Skullgirls

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    With the system you have now though, you're doing exactly that but the opposite. There's no reason to ever use any button but A. Same damage, faster startup, same combo opportunities off a punish...why would you use slower normals?

    I really think you're underestimating how good jabs/light normals can be in fighting games, which is one of the many reasons normals with greater startup offer so much more reward for hitting with them.
     
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  13. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua

    The reason to use slower normals is the same as in any other game: range.
    The entire game isn't played at point blank. And tbh the way he has stated this I wouldn't be surprised if the exact opposite of what everyone in here is saying, is happening.

    The heavies in his game might be slightly op. If I can tag you with a ranged normal that does 1 damage over having to risk moving towards you to get in range for the low range normal that does the same damage, there isn't THAT much incentive to get into jab range.
     
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  14. Dolfy

    Dolfy not into old men Events Mod

    Lights will let you go into longer hit combos. I'd much rather try to land those in neutral than space out a long range normal that does the same as me landing a jab with arguably less of a reward (even if you can special cancel it). This is just from the viewpoint of playing a shoto though. Not to mention there's no reason for me to try starting a combo up close with a heavy since it's just going to do 1 damage anyway, even if all normals are special cancel-able.

    I understand the design perspective of this game but right now it has me not that interested in playing it, and changing the round count to 3/5 to make up for the fact rounds are incredibly short is just lazy imo.

    I also really hope you (the devs) understand that the only reason I'm being so critical is because I was really pumped for this game when I first saw it; that's why I backed the game during its final stretch. I want it to be the best fighting game it can be.
     
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  15. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua

    It's the age old fireball versus combo debate.

    Fireballs on paper do shit damage, have high startup time, and high recovery time. If you were to argue winning with nothing but fireballs to someone on paper in theory... They would probably laugh. Then you take it to the real world and Bam. Fireball. They jump. Bam AA. They dash. Bam fireball. They just sit with there. Bam fireball.

    The point is that range means something. Idk how much range his moves have versus one another and that in the end will tell what makes the difference. But it is very shortsighted to think that just because jabs do the same as heavies that that in itself makes jabs better than heavies.

    I mean you certainly CAN sit there and try to get into jab range all day and get kablammoed by long range attacks while you try in a futile fashion. Or the long range attacks might suck for keep away/spaced pokes and you get in for free.

    At the end of the day it's the design of the game that will determine things. But I know for certain that I could design a game with a 1 frame 1000 damage move on one character, and a 2 frame 1 damage move on the other character and have the game be completely a 10-0 matchup in the lower damage characters favor.

    It's as simple as making the low damage characters move hit the entire screen, and the high damage characters move only a tenth of the screens range.

    Range is the only factor in this equation that matters. That's how powerful range is. It is simply much less quantifiable than 100 damage or activates in x amount of frames or recovers in x amount of frames.

    A final example from 3d games:

    Astaroth is a perennially good character in soul calibur. Yet almost all of his attacks are minus frames, and not only that... They have huge startup to boot... And not only that, lots of his stuff is parryable on reaction.


    So how is he strong? He has mad range and pushback on his moves. He may be minus on his attacks, but since he pushes you away so far, you are out of range of all of your attacks and have to spend all that precious frame advantage that you got by blocking his massive swing, into running towards him...but he doesn't have to run towards you, he can start swinging the moment he recovers. So fighting astaroth can resemble fighting against a ranged character that is always at an advantage in frames, even Though he isn't.

    (He is able to get around the parry by varying the timing of his attacks as well as delaying them and varying whether they hit high or low)


    Frames and damage only tell a part of the story. It's up to the designers to decide what story they want them to tell.

    If this doesn't sound like a game for you, that sucks. But keep an open mind. It might be a blazing pile of poo, or it might be really really fucking fun :) we don't really know at this time.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
  16. Dolfy

    Dolfy not into old men Events Mod

    a fireball that travels and is active for a long time is different from a foot that extends out for a brief moment.

    I do understand your point, but I wouldn't say it's entirely applicable to this situation.
     
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  17. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Agreed :)

    It is only an example. It may or may not be applicable. I also showed astaroth as an example and I used dhalsim as another example earlier.

    Both of which may or may not apply as well. We will just have to wait and see. My thing is, I assume that these are smart people and that they know how these things work, that's the primary reason why I think it works the way it does.

    But I certainly could be wrong, everything is conjecture and theory fighting till we actually play the game.
     
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  18. Verdant Brave

    Verdant Brave Anti-social

    Peacock
    Unknown
    Something semi-related.

    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    @PocketRumbleDev (Please let us know if you have this thread set to "watched" so we don't have to ping you individually)

    Any word on when those alpha builds are getting sent out?

    I really want to get my hands on this game to follow up on the comments in this thread.
     
  20. 4th

    4th Member

    Filia
    Cerebella
    did they take the money and run?
     
  21. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

    Location:
    Chicago, IL
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    Kai
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    Night_Phyre
    Parasoul
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    It took 3 months to get the May 6th KS update, so it's probably the same, now: they're just slow.
     
  22. Dolfy

    Dolfy not into old men Events Mod

    They were completely rebuilding the engine ground up before the may update, so the next one should come soonish.
     
  23. Ninja

    Ninja [Jazzy Diamonds]

    Location:
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    hmmm... well then keep us posted aye?
     
  24. Waasiq

    Waasiq Active Member

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    There's a new update! I was a little down on the game with the new health system, but with chip damage implemented in some way that's at least one reservation gone.

    And earlier roll out of the beta is fine by me.
     
  25. Verdant Brave

    Verdant Brave Anti-social

    Peacock
    Unknown
    I got the email update last night (while I was at Salty). Alpha builds should be rolling within 48 hours.

    We should be able to play online with it, right? Anyone gonna set up a few matches?

    Or who is even getting the alpha?



    EDIT: Whoops, scratch that. Just got an email with a link to the alpha build saying that they don't have netplay because they haven't purchased the license for GGPO yet. So sad.

    In other news, I got my alpha build!
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2015
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  26. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    Alpha Build received. Time to dissect!

    @PocketRumbleDev are we allowed to upload any footage to youtube of the alpha?

    Also, wow, I had no idea it was just 8 people for the alpha build. lol
     
  27. BrandX+

    BrandX+ ~Sinning in Vegas by the day~

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    Have fun guys :D
     
  28. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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  29. Verdant Brave

    Verdant Brave Anti-social

    Peacock
    Unknown
    Does that also mean I can take this with me to Salty?
     
  30. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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  31. Waasiq

    Waasiq Active Member

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    U P || B A C K || B E A T S || L O W S

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2015
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  32. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    I did a stream with guest @Verdant Brave to try out the game. There's a text file that explains the system mechanics, but I went ahead and wrote my findings in my own words. Please note that I haven't been able to play vs another player, so some of this will need some practical examples, but for the most part, I think it's pretty easy to see the outcome.

    Fist off, BUGS:
    This is known, but whatever: Hitting 1, 2, or 3 on the keyboard (not numpad) will crash the game.

    Savestates were apparently unintentionally left in this build (I am glad they forgot, because it is super useful).

    The hud gets messed up when you load a save state, but all the values get reset properly.
    This means that if you had 5 health left and loaded a state at full health, you'll show as having 5 health even though you have full health.

    Loading a state during round transitions will remove the hud entirely until the round ends.

    _______________________________________________________________________
    Now for the gameplay:

    Health is 12 HP. 1 hit = 1 damage (a 1-hit Hard move does the same damage as a 1-hit light move)

    This means that 5A (5L, Jab) is your most damaging option for combos as it cancels into itself and into other normals and specials.
    It's also fast and safe.
    2A is slightly less rewarding, and your hards are the least rewarding.

    I find that you're better off trying to space either 5A or 5B and confirm into a special that knocks down instead of using a sweep.
    Details (open)
    No airblock or airthrows, SF-style

    Left + right = Neutral
    Down + up = Down (This should be Down + up = Up)

    Special effects are still "on/off" instead of "on/50% transparent" so, for anything that's not 60fps, you will either get opaque effects or invisible effects.

    Specials = down-forward/back (1X or 3X) + hold button for 7 frames
    attacker hitstop shortens hold time from 7 to 3-4 frames for easier combos
    crouching normals are doable if you tap for less than hold time or return to neutral before hold time is reached.

    7f input buffer on button tap, infinite buffer on hold for any input, even dashes.
    This means you can tap a button within 7f of being able to do your next action and it will come out on the first frame.
    Holding the button will always get you the move on the first frame.

    3rd strike style block - no auto-guard for blockstrings, must keep holding back to block a blockstring.
    Hitting a button will also stop you from blocking.
    I am personally OK with being able to hold a DP in a blockstring because it lets you do what you decided to do and the opponent can bait it anyway, but this way also makes sense in making things not seem super dumb.
    Although this all becomes inconsequential considering the huge amount of pushback there is on everything.

    Chip damage was re-introduced in a form of recoverable health. Only specials/supers will cause chip.
    If you block a special move, you essentially take 0.5 damage, and if you don't take another hit within a certain amount of time, you will recover it.
    If you block 2 hits of a special move within that time frame, you will lose 1 point of health.
    For example: Tenchi's super fireball is 4 hits, so you would take 2 points of chip damage.

    Can chain Normal > Special OR Super (hit/block only)
    Can chain 5L into itself or any other attack
    All other normals must be special cancelled.

    Throw = 4/6H when in range
    7f tech window (2f startup from 5H + 5f throw animation)
    Crouch tech works exactly like SG:
    can't tech while holding down, but as long as you are not holding down you can tech a throw, even if you were crouching when you got thrown.

    Jumping at all makes you immune to both lows and throws.
    There is pre-block, but it doesn't keep you stuck to the ground at all and is simply an animation.
    If you get knocked down, the attacker can time his throw attempt (6H) so that it will either catch upback, or throw the downback.
    If the attacker messes up, the defender gets a free punish from upbacking.
    Only reliable way out of this is to DP or tech the throw.
    Throw being 6H is an auto-OS for this as opposed to having to do either a low to beat upback or throw tech and throw to beat blocking.

    Crossup pushback goes away from attacker (like BlazBlue) instead of towards attacker (like 3s/SG).
    I think the check is "away from attacker" instead of "opposite direction of defender's facing".

    One other thing I noticed is that I don't think the character anchor points are allowed to go passed the floor at all, so if you wanted to do an air move low to the ground, you'll just cancel out of it.

    Namely Naomi's j.B.

    Summary of concerns:
    - down + up = down instead of up
    - Anchor points don't seem to be allowed to pass the floor
    - Special effects are still "on/off" instead of "on/50% transparent"
    - all moves do same damage, low health (this skews move usage)
    - Crossups push away from attacker
    - jump is immune to low/throw, upback doesn't lose to lows
    because of that the general mixup is mid/throw instead of low/throw​
    - Lows in general are not all that useful or rewarding as 5A
    = 3s block style, button negating block disallowing blockstring DPs
    + Chip damage concept is great, but may need tweaking if health/damage changes
    + best input buffer
    + no crouch tech

    My suggestions:
    • Increase health and give moves variable damage appropriate for the type of move it is per character.
      • For example: Tenchi: 5A/2A should be 1 damage, 5B should be 2 damage and 2B should be 3 damage since it's a sweep and you get no followups from it.
    • Have SG-style pre-block to make lows useful to use as a poke and catch upback.
    • Allow 2A to cancel into B moves like 5A.
    • Use the 50% transparency instead of just off entirely to allow non-60fps video to show the game properly
    • have crossups move with the attacker and not away from them
    • If down + up are pressed at the same time, give UP priority over DOWN.
    • Allow anchor point to pass floor during air moves to allow them to be done lower to the ground.

    @PocketRumbleDev

     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
  33. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    One other thing I noticed is that I don't think the character anchor points are allowed to go passed the floor at all, so if you wanted to do an air move low to the ground, you'll just cancel out of it.

    Namely Naomi's j.B (elbow drop).
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
  34. PocketRumbleDev

    PocketRumbleDev New Member

  35. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    Fukua
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    The video responses are great! :D Hearing indepth contesting reasons for design choices certainly is interesting to see and hear. The conversation on making lows useful less as a move vs. upback and more as an on-whiff cancel into Tenchi's counter is a cool touch.
     
  36. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    I notice that you seem to refer to 5A as the "poke" move, so I will clarify my terminology here to avoid confusion.

    Poke = (using) any move in an attempt to land a hit or pressure and/or condition the opponent.


    Point 1: Health and Damage
    Preferring Farther range = less damage, closer range = more damage
    1 hit = 1 damage

    Adding variable damage per move does not change the fact that being closer will give you higher damage combos. What it changes is their value as standalone pokes during the neutral game which is one of the big concerns that myself and others share.

    Let's say for example Tenchi's specials do 2 damage per hit, his A buttons do 1 damage, his 5B and j.B do 2, and his 2B does 3, like I described before. Let's also say that jumping doesn't beat lows and will actually get caught by them. And finally, let's say there's no damage scaling at all.

    This makes Tenchi's 2B much more useful as a neutral game poke and more useful to punish jumping while still being in line with your preference of having higher damage combos for being closer to the opponent. 3 damage and a knockdown seems like a lot if you're still thinking 1 hit = 1 damage, but if you were to do jump-in j.B or were able to start a close range combo with an A move, you would be getting much more damage than 2B.

    Example Tenchi combos that are doable in the current game:

    5A > 5A > 5B > 3B = 4 hits, 6 damage with knockdown and 1 unit meter build
    With j.B jump-in, it's 5 hits, 8 damage
    With min range j.A, it's 5 hits, 7 damage
    With max range j.A, it's 3 hits, 5 damage (having to skip 5A > 5A due to range)
    With max range 5B, it's 2 hits, 4 damage
    And 2B alone is 3 damage

    These combos would also do more damage if 2A was able to cancel into B moves further rewarding damage for being up close.

    To look at it another way: If a person is really good at landing mid to long range moves on the other person and doesn't combo that much, doing so should be able to KO the other person faster than if he were to do that with a Light that does 1 damage because he is giving the other person many more chances to play.

    As you can see from the numbers, this also helps normalize damage giving you an idea of where to set health and allow players the right amount of minimum chances per round. Currently, any combo starting with 5A will net you at least 4 damage, which ends the round in 3 bread 'n butter combos or 2 jump-in full combos with some stray hits/chip, or 2 half life combos (Naomi). Requiring so few touches makes the game more random because it can end super early or end in time up and is one of the reasons why one would naturally increase the default amount of rounds per game because more rounds gives more chances in a game where rounds end super fast or with very few touches (see Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3).

    I think for Pocket Rumble, the combo damage I recommend you use to balance health is a max damage combo from a jump in j.B using no meter. Considering the combo examples above, and using the same damage values, I would start health at 30 to allow 3 full combos and 1 short combo and/or some chip to win the round. Meter spending will require less combos to win, but since you are using a resource, it makes sense to allow that. Then, health/damage can be tweaked accordingly (it is still alpha after all).


    Point 2: Jumps beating lows
    I think the fact that you can't punish someone for being in the air as hard as someone on the ground already makes jumping really good and does not need to be invulnerable to lows. When you get hit in the air, you get sent backward and are invincible until you land. The only way to get a combo on an airborne opponent is if all moves used in the combo cause knockdown. Tenchi's 4 hit combo with Anti-Air Antlers is a corner-only combo, otherwise you get 2 damage max. Naomi gets 3 damage from 2B > 2B > 1A and that's it. Along with the low damage potential vs airborne opponents, if you didn't end it in a knockdown, it essentially resets the game back to neutral potentially losing whatever positional advantage you had or might have had. In fact, if Tenchi hits someone out of the air with a non-knockdown move, he is actually minus for trying to dash in for a mixup. He would instead need to be very close when hitting the button, then walk in to be able to pressure the opponent. You wouldn't use his normals as an AA anyway, but it's just an example of how jumps aren't terribly dangerous.

    The other argument you brought up was that lows can be used to poke safely and still counter jumps on reaction. The problem is, so can the other moves. If I know you're going to jump, and I can't hit you low if you're jumping, why would I use a low to begin with? I would just use my anti-air move and get my 2-4 damage into knockdown/reset. If I don't know you're going to jump, I can also easily use 5A or 5B and would still be able to use my Anti-Air special to counter your jump-in if my 5A or 5B didn't already catch you. The only way Tenchi would get punished for using 5B to catch a jump is if he did it noticeably late. In neutral, you'd just go right into AA Antlers because he has no other good AA moves other than his 2 back specials, and on oki, you'd time it with the option select and can block or AA Antlers on reaction.

    Jumps as they are now are actually very good and are not as situational as you think. Jumping is actually the go-to option if you think they'll go low at mid-range neutral forcing people to use mids to catch jumps and essentially negating the usefulness of lows. Tenchi can't poke with 2B if jumps can never be hit by it because he will just get punished for free for even trying it. Instead he'd be more focused on doing AA Antlers and 5B to catch jumps. If, however, lows were able to hit jumps, they would then be more situational due to more things being able to beat it and would require smarter use of jumps while still being good due to not being able to be punished very hard for being in the air.

    Also, with variable damage, the times you're able to get a full Anti-Air combo would also be similar to grounded full combos further normalizing damage and making it easier to set a health value that will give people a good amount of minimum chances to play.


    Point 3: Canceling 2A into B moves
    It'd make 2A more useful as a combo starter because you would be able to do more hits and have an easier time confirming into something. It wouldn't help vs jumping if jumps stay immune to lows, but it would at least add damage to close range combos.

    It also gives the player a general rule that you can do A > B > Special/Super instead of only 5A > B > Special/Super


    Point 4: Transparency
    What if you did 50/50 or 60/40 or 80/20 transparency?
    Surely there's some sort of transparency setting that works that will let you show the game properly on 30 fps video while still looking good in the game.


    Point 5: Crossups
    The main thing about the defender moving away from the attacker on crossup is that it punishes the attacker for trying to crossup by sacrificing position as well as potential damage. Yes, it's tricky, but that's why it's a mixup. Mixups are supposed to be tricky so that you can fool the player into opening up to your attacks. They're still just as blockable as any other mixup (except for that throw OS which I'll talk about later). Giving less reward for crossup will enable players not to have to think as much about taking the crossup, because they know the reward is less than a normal jump-in. In a game like Pocket Rumble, I think crossups deserve the incentive to actually use crossups as a mixup tool without having to sacrifice position and damage.


    Point 6: Anchor Point
    I'm not really talking about jump arc and more about trying to do moves low to the ground.
    Many times, I'm trying to time a deep jump in to get the most out of the stun of that move and make it easier to confirm from, but my move ends up getting cancelled early due to the anchor point hitting the floor. The best example of this is Naomi's j.B. The hitbox on that move is really narrow vertically and has less stun than her j.A so it is generally difficult to combo from whether it's a crossup or a normal jump-in unless you get it to hit fairly deep. I can't really think of a situation where, if I wanted to hit the button to do a deep jump-in, I wouldn't want the move to come out and hit. I'd pretty much always want that deep jump-in to hit. The only reason why someone might not want the move to come out would be to do a fake jump-in to get them to block high and then go low or something, but I'm not sure if Pocket Rumble has that kind of leeway to give a character a slow startup j.B just for that when it could be made more useful for general purposes.

    In other words, I would rather have the move itself touch the ground before having to land instead of simply landing once the character's anchor point touches the ground.


    New Points: Throw OS and Stun
    Some things I thought up while writing this.

    1. Why did you put throw on B? It creates a really good OS that pretty much overshadows any kind of honest high/low/throw mixup and lowers required thinking for mindgames. The only way out of it is to either tech the throw or do a DP. The defender doesn't really have a way to completely turnover momentum, just reset it back to neutral.

    2. Why is stun the same for block and hit? I didn't research this much, but I remember a couple times where it'd be better balanced if certain moves had different frame advantage between hit and block.

    Also, have you seen Mike Z's video on FGs? I noticed a couple things he suggests that you don't do. One is the crossup thing, and another is trades. Pocket Rumble acts like the SF4 example (around 46 minutes in) and both characters immediately go into stun instead of showing their attack animations to make it clearer what happened. Just wondering how much of that video you might implement in PR.
     
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  37. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    To the alpha testers, how does the special system feel? It's one of the things I'm not too keen on, I'd rather have traditional motions or an extra button, does it feel awkward? Do you ever get special attacks out that you dont want?

    Man I really hope that beta comes out soon, I don't want to pitch in till I've played it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
  38. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    It's kind of awkward at first because many people from other FGs get used to being able to hold down-forward or down-back during normals to get ready to block or do some other special move, so there were a bunch of accidental specials when first picking it up.

    The way around it is to either not hold forward or back while holding down, or tap the button faster than the time it takes to have the special move come out.

    In neutral, you have to hold the button for 7 frames for the special to come out. In combos, that number is reduced to 3-4 to make it easier to combo into specials.

    Considering that pretty much every console (and portable console) has a minimum of 4 face buttons and 2 shoulder buttons, having a 3rd button for specials or throw doesn't seem all that farfetched. In fact, I would really rather just have a throw button instead of the way throws are now because that OS is really dumb. Or if they really want to keep 2 buttons make throw be 5A+B and make whatever character specific thing be 2A+B.
     
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  39. PocketRumbleDev

    PocketRumbleDev New Member

    why does jumping need to be punished so much? Jumping is pretty terrible as a movement option outside of a few very specific situations when you don't have airblock or any other kind of jumping options. I'll get into this more when the jumping beats lows section comes up I guess.


    Are you sure about this? getting the 4 hits (at least with Tenchi) is super impractical. usually you'll only get 3 points because you can't 5A>5A due to range. Here is something you can test yourself: even a really dumb close-range 3B(hold), the antler charge, cannot be punished with 4 hits due to the hurtbox resetting further away from you. Those 4 hit combos just straight up don't happen except for when you bait a DP. So if we are being more practical, it's more like 4 BnB's to win the match (3 points each). I think this will be super obvious once GGPO is in and you can play some real matches.

    Speaking of dmg, here is how things works out now with rounded percents (for Tenchi):
    2B Max Range -> 8% (12 to kill)
    5B Max Range -> 17% (6 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK
    2A Max Range -> 17% (6 to kill) SAFE ON BLOCK
    5A Max Range -> 25% (4 to kill)
    DP Punish Range -> 33% (3 to kill)
    Far Range Jump-In -> 25%(4 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation
    Close Range Jump-In -> 42% (3 to kill)
    Late Crossup -> 33% (3 to kill)
    Early Crossup -> 42% (3 to kill)

    this is ignoring meter options and stuff, but you can see what I'm getting at here. Nothing does 50%, and things are scaling appropriately due to range. Let's see what is going on with your proposed changes (I'm going to assume antlercharge is at least 2 dmg because antlercharge doing less than 5B will feel very silly if there is variable dmg, and also that 2A combos into 5B):

    2B Max Range -> 10% (10 to kill)
    5B Max Range -> 13% (8 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK
    2A Max Range -> 20% (5 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but some amount of hit confirmation
    5A Max Range -> 23% (5 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation
    DP Punish Range -> 27% (4 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation
    Far Range Jump-In -> 17% (6 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation
    Close Range Jump-In -> 30% (4 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation
    Late Crossup -> 30% (4 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation
    Early Crossup -> 33% (3 to kill) UNSAFE ON BLOCK, but lots of hit confirmation

    Immediately the things I don't like are:
    -dmg hike from 5B to 2A range (+7%) makes 5B raw feel pretty useless in comparison to 2A, exacerbated by the fact these ranges aren't as a severe a difference as, say, 2A to 5A
    -Far Range Jump-In's require 2 more to kill than DP punishes, instead of just 1 with the old system
    -almost every combo must end with 5B and antlercharge for max dmg, which is boring
    -not a big enough difference from the old system

    I think it's also important to point out that once we have the "character swap after losing a round" in we are going back to 3/5 rounds, and in general ST-style short rounds are easier to keep track of, which we like, and it'll be nice when that swapping is in and we are seeing a lot more variety in the game on a constant basis (for both the players and people watching). It's also not exactly fun to have to have to pull off 4 or 5 full jump-in combos with only 1 health if you have a rough start to win a round. I'd rather just have more rounds instead lots of health with one or two rounds.

    Not true, from someone trying to cross you up you can combo anti-air to DP for 3 points not in the corner, and when you include meter that goes up to an insane 5 points. Jumping against Tenchi is very scary, and it's scary against Naomi as well (did you know you link her 2Bs into each other?). You get more for juggling in Pocket Rumble than you do for most ground combos, and that is the game working as intended. Juggling was designed to be crazy in Pocket Rumble because crossups are so easy to do and to make those high dmg value jump-in's more dangerous to attempt. That being said, jumps as a result are a lot scarier and less worth it for every other jump situation in the game (especially because no air options), so that's just one reason why we gave it the buff of low invuln, which doesn't apply really for jumping over projectiles and oki setups.

    The option select does exist, and I kinda wish it didn't, but the throw whiff just felt really bad being on forward/back B, and we can't have 2 button throws. The good thing is that at least you won't get as much dmg potential as if just let them jump and then AA like you mentioned, and it also is super easy to put yourself back in neutral if you see it coming and you can straight up beat it with a DP on prediction because DPs have throw invuln. However, I do think that having the low attackbox out is still better than doing nothing, especially if you are in the corner when people are afraid of safe-jumps. If you never did meaty lows people have absolutely no reason to not just block high when they want to wake up and block.

    If the OS problem becomes too severe we can alleviate it by making the startup on standB a frame or two slower with generally lower attackboxes to make it so that a standB from a whiffed throw (in situations where the throw could have connected) never connects with the person, or something along these lines. If that makes standB useless, as a last resort, we can bring back whiff throw animations, but this time they'll only exist in ranges where the throw would have connected (like Samurai Shodown V Special).

    Well, another big reason why we wanted low invuln was so that the frame data can be just objectively better on low normals in comparison to standing normals, and it makes our normals more diverse and interesting that way. It sounds like instead of completely removing that system that we should just buff 2B? 2B is one dmg max, so it would be interesting to have the same startup as 5A, but still have that long recovery if someone predicted it (or something along these lines, basically it seems that we can maybe go crazier with low normals than we thought we could). We kinda like the idea of having to use standing normals to catch people trying to jump mid-range, what's wrong with that? If we make lows catch jumps, aren't we just making longer reach low pokes kind of redundant when 5B exists? I don't think I'd mind people jumping all over the place in a game that has no air-block or double jump or anything, that's pretty interesting, especially with how scary our juggles are!

    I'll try that sometime soon and report back, although it's still going to have the issue at 30fps playback some kind of consistent transparent effect that looks weird with the rest of the art. Maybe having some kind change in the alpha even at 30fps like 60/40/80/20 could work, although that might just look even worse idk.

    I still don't agree. If you neutral jump in someone's face instead of crossup, you should get more for your combo, since that is such an obvious thing to block (if they have the ability to block) and DP (controls will not be swapped once character crosses). Pocket Rumble doesn't need to dumb itself down with the amount of options someone has, just make those options as easy as possible to execute.

    but won't that happen pretty much no matter what unless we make jump moves have ridiculously short startup? I like the idea of some moves being more vulnerable to DPs because they change your anchor point, but at the same time I kind of don't like that only some moves are going to change the jump arc and the amount it changes is so fuzzy and weird. Does that feel annoying enough to massively increase the complexity of jump moves? Like, if we wanted to explain this to somebody who wants to know all the variables contained within a move, we'd have to make a brand new parameter for our moves table that says ANCHOR POINT CHANGE and yeah that just sounds like a huge mess for little benefit.

    Still, I do kinda like variable anchor points... So I'm not sure, we'll see.


    because every other variation of throw felt weird with 2 buttons. You can increase your dmg output by waiting to do proper AA (even outside of the corner for some characters). You say the defender doesn't have a way to completely turnover momentum, but DP does that just fine, even if it is pretty risky?

    because the things we wanted to be punishable already knocked down or already were special cancelable.

    I'll check it out when I have a chance, but your example makes perfect sense, especially when we have a stretchy character like June in I could see us realizing how important that is and change it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
  40. Waasiq

    Waasiq Active Member

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    While I don't like all the design decisions you guys have made, I really appreciate that you've come into the thread and talked about why they are and are willing to take feedback!

    And that's not to say I'm really down on your game, I'm still excited to play it and see how your approach plays out in practice.

    How much damage do you guys plan on having high damage characters do? I'm not sure if Naomi is one of those, she seems to be able to get 6 HP off a jab (optimal starter, I guess). Not sure if in matches that scales down to 4 or 5 hits, but that would still be higher than Tenchi. Or do you have plans for other characters to do higher amounts of damage?
     

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