Not a fan of harder difficulties

Discussion in 'Gaming' started by SanoBaron, Sep 13, 2013.

  1. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    I'll use Squire Grooktook as an example. He says that he enjoys playing games on hard mode.
    But I don't believe that he will enjoy playing EVERY game on hard mode.

    Some games are just absolutely terrible when the difficulty is set too high, to the point where everyone agrees that it sucks on Nightmare Mode.
     
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  2. destruction_adv

    destruction_adv Yare Yare Daze

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    I can see where you're going more clearly now, and it does make sense. I agree that harder doesn't automatically equal better.
     
  3. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    I agree, though this is more of a design flaw then anything else. Sometimes a game might be about reflexes or strategy, but devolves into restrictive trial and error as a result of poorly balanced additional difficulty modes. But this is not a necessity, indeed the game could simply increase the amount of reactions or tactical descisions you have to make (and the speed/accuracy of them as well) to become harder. That's why I would chalk the transition from challenging to punishing as the result of laziness or a design flaw on the part of the developers.

    I partially disagree. While technically all art is subjective, there are certain things that are close enough that we can call them flaws.

    For example, we might say a painting that is trying to be realistic but has royally screwed up perspective or anatomy is suffering from a flaw. True, some people might actually think it looks interesting, but the fact of the matter is, if I drew that and sent it to my art teacher, he'd say "you done goofed, son". In general, it's a matter of logic. An attempt at a realistic story can't have plot holes or make no logical sense, a realistic paintings perspective has to make sense, and a game that is trying to be exciting can't lock you in a room doing nothing for 50 minutes (an exaggerated example, but I'm trying to make a point).

    True, maybe there's someone out there who enjoys sitting in a room for 50 minutes twiddling their thumbs, but it's so in-congruent with the stated purpose of the game (excitement) that one cannot really defend it as logical (or finds oneself extremely hard pressed to do so).
     
  4. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Well I'm glad that people get what I'm saying now. I was a little unclear in my first big post but it seems like we are all on the same page now.

    Squire about that last thing you said, psssh I already know that. You can't take a shit on the rug, call it art, and still be right about it.
     
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  5. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    Oh that's good. A while back I said something along those lines when defending Skullgirls on a forum (saying it had no real flaws, or at least much less then any other fighter on the market), and a ton of people jumped all over me for it, ha ha.
     
  6. Beuzer0

    Beuzer0 Bozo Zozo

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    It's true there is a difference between facing a human or the CPU / scripted sequence / gameplay mecanics /etc. It can be more frustrating to lose in front of that rather than being beaten up by somebody else.
    Still, I love games that are challenging enough. If a game has 3 levels of difficulty, I'll pick the middle one first and then do the game again on hard. If it has 4 or more levels, i would be more interested in hard rather than normal, because hard won't be the hardest. Playing on easy sounds like heresy to me.
    BUT I admit a game that is way too much hard can be really annoying. Some just tend to be the "f***ing impossible mode" and there' not very fun.

    Another kind of difficulty i love in games: beating my best score in puzzles and shoot'em up.
     
  7. Kawalorn

    Kawalorn Aka Oni

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    I play some games on hard mode because it's not fun when it's too easy. Like the game I was playing recently Dust: An Elysian Tail is WAY too easy on normal, mostly because enemies die way too fast and I can't style on them. :P

    There are also some games that may play differently on higher difficulty, because for example you might not bother with dodge move on normal difficulty, but when you start to lose tons of HP on every hit you might start to.
     
  8. Sanger Zonvolt

    Sanger Zonvolt Best Marie in NA

    I love difficulty, I'm just not always skilled enough to beat it!

    Touhou lunatic is taxing on the body and mind.
     
  9. Horseman

    Horseman This place ain't how it used to be

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    I feel like you're probably playing the wrong hard games.
    High difficulty is very hard to balance for, and tons of developers get it wrong. If you want to try out an actually challenging game, you should find one that actually totes its difficulty as a feature and/or is highly regarded for it. Dark Souls, some indie games like rogue legacy, pre-SotN castlevania games were masterful at this if you want to try one of those. But for the most part, if the game isn't balanced around the challenge actually being there in every difficulty, it's probably not going to get fantastic if you turn up the difficulty level.
     
  10. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Hey if he doesn't like to play games on hard mode then that's not a problem, don't just assume that he's doing it wrong.

    I don't play games on hard mode either, only on second play throughs. That doesn't mean that I've been "playing the wrong hard games." It's just my preference.
     
  11. Agent York

    Agent York Crisp as a clear spring morning

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    Man, lot of negativity in these comments.

    I say do whatever difficulty you want. If the game is too easy turn it up. If the game is too hard turn it down. The difficulties are there for a reason. If you don't like it one way, make it another way. I used to always play games on normal or easy because I was afraid of losing. After getting into fighting games and hardcore action games though, I started to crave difficulty and challenge in the games that I played. That doesn't mean I'm gonna talk down on someone for preferring to play on lower difficulties, because there was a time when I was much like that. You can't force someone to play how you want them to, nor make them play on a harder difficulty, that is a decision that they make themselves. I'm not gonna be negative to someone just because they can't handle a challenging game like God Hand or Dark Souls, neither will I berate them for turning down the difficulty in a game. There's nothing wrong with playing on normal or easy man, it's just what you find comfortable to play on. Some people find fun in challenging themselves, while others don't. Don't worry about it.
     
  12. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    I think the main reason I never see the need for difficulty being raised, is because I face and overcome difficulties in real life, and video games are one of the main sources I use for escapism, so I prefer not mixing the two. (except sometimes when I want to get good at a fighting game or something)
     
  13. XthAtGAm3RGuYX

    XthAtGAm3RGuYX GOOMBA STOMP!!

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    Some games are just too damn easy. It can be fun steamrolling the AI, but it gets boring fast. Like Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. I cant get a kick out of that game unless im playing on Very Hard difficulty. Though Revengeance difficulty is the challenging one. Its the exact same as Very Hard difficulty, but every hit does at LEAST 100% damage, if not more. Those mothers fuckers will eat all your repair paste. You can only survive a hit like that if you got all the health upgrades and your bar is maxed at 200%

    Where as something like DMC3 and Bayonetta, I never felt the need to advance past the default normal difficulties.
     
  14. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    That aspect of life isn't unique to your situation. Everyone does this.
     
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  15. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

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    You don't need excuses, if you don't want to be challenged in your games, that's fine. If you love developing your skills to the point where you can overcome difficult game challenges, that's fine too.
     
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  16. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    For me Stealth Games get really frustrating when they are too hard. When the enemies are so sensitive to your presence that it's just unrealistic, that's when I'm like "OK please stop noticing me, it should not be this hard to go unnoticed at night." When I'm actually fighting someone that's when I want them to actually challenge me a bit. That's why The Last Of Us is pretty fun on Survivor Mode. Enemy strength is raised of course but there's not much difference in the stealth aspect. Removing listen mode makes up for that. Naughty Dog really got that down.

    Still, even after mastering Survivor Mode and becoming good at the game, I know I am going to have a shit ton more fun doing New Game Plus on Easy and mowing everything down like the storm of destruction I love being.

    Also Sano watch your wording. You tend to give off the wrong idea when you talk, like in the Shantae thread.
     
  17. XthAtGAm3RGuYX

    XthAtGAm3RGuYX GOOMBA STOMP!!

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    Pretty much. I use it as escapism and for fun as well, but if im not being challenged in some way at all it just feels like im wasting time. Theres nothing inherently wrong with that but i like working towards a goal and earning something at the end.
     
  18. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    I think you responded to the wrong guy. That was directed at Sano. You and I are already in agreement on this issue.
     
  19. XthAtGAm3RGuYX

    XthAtGAm3RGuYX GOOMBA STOMP!!

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    I quoted you because I agreed that i didnt follow what he was saying to an extent
     
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  20. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    [​IMG]

    Being serious though, I've typed a bit about risk and return (a concept I idolize) and how it relates to difficulty modes in games, if anything is written poorly do tell me so I can amend it:

    Basically, for each risk you take you should get a return on it, the bigger the risk, the bigger the return. In Skullgirls it's like the difference between using a heavy starter and a light starter: a heavy chain starter leaves more room for different links (the majority of which are not heavy attacks) and deals more damage, but at the same time increase Undizzy faster and, if it misses, there are usually more end frames that'll leave you vulnerable. If, say, heavy attacks had as little risks and consequences as light attacks then no one would have any reason to use LP or LK until they've used up every other possible chain starter.

    In regards to other games, Bayonetta for example, the risks you take and the return you get change depending on how good you are. The risk and return in the game mostly comes from the dodge system, where the world around you is slowed down on a successful dodge, but this requires proper reflexes and timing, if you're too late you'll get hit. For someone new to the game who doesn't know the enemy patterns there's more risk of failure than someone who's completed the game twice already, but the same return exists for both. If a game just rewarded you for doing easy tasks it would get boring fast, so for the expert players there exists are harder difficulty which decreases the return they get (enemies have more health so the percentage of health taken away decreases in harder difficulties) and increases the consequences of failure (more damage on hit).

    Simply put, risks are less risky the better you are at a game, so harder difficulties are there to help rebalance the risks to your skill.

    Some games have ridiculously easy normal modes and so the harder modes are considered to be what the average gamer would be playing (most of the popular FPS titles come to mind), especially these days, heck, I can't even remember the last time I saw a game over screen outside of the older JRPGs I've played recently.
     
  21. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    I dont know why I keep doing that. Maybe its an autistic thing, maybe I'm just not good at conveying my thoughts out in text or speech..... ;A; I have so many problems.
     
  22. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    Wait, so you agreed with my disagreeing, or you disagreed with my agreeing? Can we just come to an agreement to agree to disagree?

    Agreed?
     
  23. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    this can also apply to the thread as a whole.
     
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  24. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Man I just want people to stop assuming that players who enjoy easy/normal mode are bad at at video games or that they don't understand the satisfaction of hard work. That's the kind of elitist vibe I've been getting.

    I was fucking awesome at Halo and I completed Legendary mode several times. Regardless, one of my favorite things to do was rip through Easy mode as an indestructible badass. This was even more fun with a friend.
     
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  25. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    I'm gonna admit that I do, in a way, feel like that. I do the same with music, and I understand why some people don't like my attitude. It's really tough for me to look at somebody listen to laptop electro or play COD on easy and then take them seriously. I feel like they're just auto-piloting through what should be a vibrant, intensive recreational experience. You get back what you put in, and I feel like I don't get a damn thing back from those kinds of easy-breezy experiences.

    My wife asks me regularly, "why do you keep playing games on the hardest difficulty? That can't be fun." It's because I'm not gonna let that goddamn game beat me! Gimme that fucking trophy!
     
  26. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    There are different ways to enjoy a game other than the way you do it. You need to be able to take those people who listen to electro or play COD on easy seriously because they are the same as you, just people who love playing games. Easy, Normal, Hard, Nightmare, there is no "Best" way to play a game. You can still have a "vibrant, intensive recreational experience" without it having to be difficult. I'll mention The Last Of Us again. I played it on Normal first. but the person who played the game on Survivor first did NOT have a better experience than me, and if he did it's not because of the difficulty. Also Journey is a good example too, I haven't played it but I know it's pretty damn easy.

    Also I guess one of the differences between us is that I don't feel like I need to prove myself to the game. Trophy's are awesome though. God dammit, video game developers really know how to keep us playing.
     
  27. SanoBaron

    SanoBaron Delicious chewable Hubba-Bella

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    THIS! THIS FIRST PARAGRAPH WAS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET AT! THANK YOU!
     
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  28. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    Yeah, a similar example is Gradius V. I have never played a game that made me feel so exhausted when I was done. I would never have imagined a video game could make me feel physically tired to the point of wanting to go lie down.
     
  29. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    I don't understand what's fun about playing a game where losing is pretty much not on the radar. Journey isn't even an example of where this was done right as not being able to lose was the biggest issue with that game, it was just held up by it's more artistic side which most other games can't even hold a candle to.

    Genuinely, unless a game's gameplay is a part of (if not all of) the story like in Journey, ICO and Bioshock then I see no reason to make the game very easy instead of watch a movie.
     
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  30. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Well that seems to be a problem you need to work out on your own Eagle.
     
  31. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    Wow ok, maybe I should clarify that I don't think I'm wrong and unless someone points out a reason that what I said was false my opinion isn't going to change. With a reply like that you may as well have just said nothing at all.
     
  32. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    Hey, a cookie tastes the same whether you made it yourself or it was made for you.
     
  33. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    Unless you don't know any cookie recipes...
     
  34. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    ^actually a relevant extension for the metaphor
     
  35. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    I kinda agree. It really begs the question, why is it even possible to die if the game is too easy for it to be a possibility?

    Also as this new frontier of "story telling games" becomes more explored, I do hope game developers realize that there's no point of making it a video game if it doesn't have interesting gameplay.
     
  36. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    HEY. Whether it's a book, a movie, or a video game, story tellers should have the freedom to choose whichever medium they desire to express their work!

    The Walking Dead had NO gameplay but I still give it 9/10 because that game was amazing regardless!
     
  37. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    They have the freedom, but the question is: If being a game instead of a book/movie/comic benefits it nothing, or even inhibits the story to some degree, then why make it a game?

    It's like, if you want to tell a story involving in depth characterization and development of its characters, then why make it a 50 page short story instead of a full length novel? You can do whatever you want, but your goal is being unnecessarily held back by the limitations of the medium you have chosen.
     
  38. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    It does not beg the question. It leads one to ask the question, maybe, but it does not beg the question.
     
  39. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    @Squire Grooktook
    Yeah same, if they're going to tell a story they have to make use of their medium; you can't have expect a movie to have good story but have been badly directed and still come out as a good project (bad acting, bad camera-work and bad choreography can all pull a movie far down), likewise just making a game that has good story but disjointed and poor gameplay isn't going to be good enough.

    A good story can make a good game better, but it can't make a bad game good (we're getting a bit of topic here I think :p)
     
  40. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    We have definitely veered away from the topic of the thread but I'll keep talking.

    Do you think that The Walking Dead game would have been better as a book, comic, or movie?
     

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