Ms. Fortune's C LK Nerf

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by ReSpAwNz67, May 19, 2015.

  1. ReSpAwNz67

    ReSpAwNz67 But Mike Z, Where's The OTG?

    PSN:
    ReSpAwNz67
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Well since no one else is making a thread about this and since it is a pretty damn big change I decided I would make a thread on this and voice my opinions on the change. Before I get into this though, I welcome anyone else who has thoughts about the change to also voice their opinions on it good or bad. I was delaying the creation of this thread as most if not everyone dislikes the new change to Ms. Fortune's c lk and i expected it to either be reverted or buffed this weekend. Seeing as that didn't happen I was really dreading making a thread dedicated to this.

    Now first and foremost her old c lk was 7f and +3 on block. This played an important part in her neutral game (although not really too crutch) it helped make her bad neutral game a little better. Now I'm not say "omg she has the worst neutral game" but compared to most of the cast it is pretty awful. Fortune's only moves that she was + on (while grounded) was s lp, c lp, and c lk. She can only make other moves safe when she has her head off or via assist.

    The recent change nerfed her c lk (which was the fastest in the game at the time) from 7f > 8f and +0 on block. I've taken some time to digest the change and thought maybe you'd be able to bait out moves with it but that was not the case. All it did was make her bad neutral game even worse, as well as something I totally feel was unwarranted, something I know a few people would agree with me on that. The combo opportunity from a max range c lk didn't offer much damage and if you wanted to continue you'd have to follow up with Rekkas > Slide which wasted your otg. I believe this trade off was more than enough to balance it out and it's not like anyone was complaining or crying about the move being "too good" and those who were had very little knowledge about the move compared to other crouching moves.

    I don't want to make this thread about anyone else's crouching moves *cough* Cerebella *cough* as I know that will make bigger gameplay changes than what is desired, but as to the reasons why Ms. Fortune's c lk was nerfed I believe they were completely, as I said before, unwarranted. Sure it was the fastest c lk in the game but what else does Ms. Fortune really have going for her, and even then it still got beat out by crouching moves that had better priority. Fortune's c lk served as a way to pressure the opponent both head on and head off. Even head off if you try pressuring the opponent by hitting the head in the corner on block with a c lk they will have a moment where they can call an assist or super which is extremely frustrating. It's not like the move was ever "too good" or anything like that.

    I would really appreciate it if @Mike_Z would reconsider this nerf and for anyone having other thoughts or the same thoughts to voice them. Thank you.
     
  2. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    c.lk is fine imo, still a lot better than most.
     
    Midiman, Dolfy, Zephyrel and 2 others like this.
  3. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Well, you @'d me.
    So I'm gonna chop out most of your post and just say
    this right here invalidates ALL of the rest of your text. If that's truly what you think then -1f startup and +3f on block on one move won't help her go from total garbage to playable.

    Refrain from hyperbole and restate your argument, maybe?
     
  4. ReSpAwNz67

    ReSpAwNz67 But Mike Z, Where's The OTG?

    PSN:
    ReSpAwNz67
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Eh that wasn't really meant to be taken literally as Big Band Patch > Beowulf Patch we've seen a lot nerf reverts and yes, she has gotten better. As for c lk I really (as I stated before) feel like the change just made a character who's neutral game from "not that good" to "a little less good than not that good" It was an important tool for pressuring your opponent and baiting certain things and coupled with the fact that well, it was a low. I'm not saying "omfg this character is shit now" it's more like why was this done when nothing was really wrong with the move. It came right out of left field.
     
  5. Domo

    Domo literally unblockable 40 frame overheads

    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    PSN:
    Domo_is_special
    XBL:
    Domo is special
    Beowulf
    Big Band
    Painwheel
    having your cLK being +0 when you have the fastest jab in the entire game aint too bad haha
     
    Nomad, mcpeanuts and Iphantom like this.
  6. ReSpAwNz67

    ReSpAwNz67 But Mike Z, Where's The OTG?

    PSN:
    ReSpAwNz67
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    You're right.
    So if she has the fastest jab she has the best neutral game right? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
     
  7. Domo

    Domo literally unblockable 40 frame overheads

    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    PSN:
    Domo_is_special
    XBL:
    Domo is special
    Beowulf
    Big Band
    Painwheel
    ya because your cLK losing 3 frames advantage on block totally ruins and changes her neutral game right ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    My point was that even IF you're not as +, you still have an extremely fast move to throw out after they block your cLK and the only thing thats gonna beat it is stuff that would have beaten it before you lost those three frames
     
    Midiman likes this.
  8. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    To clear this up - she got overall buffed between Big Band/Eliza and Beowulf.

    Are you entirely missing the point? I don't agree with you! I think that statement is WRONG. That's why it got changed.

    Yes, it was meant to underscore your OPINION that Fortune completely sucks and has nothing else going for her. I do not agree with your OPINION, but you don't seem to realize that your OPINION is not automatically FACT. Which is why this is going to be my last post in here.

    She has a 5f s.LP. That by itself means she can punish a huge number of things that NO OTHER CHARACTER can punish, without even spending meter. It makes a lot of things that are normally safe (L Brass, any Lock'n'Load, etc) not safe vs her. That's a good neutral attribute!
    She also has a DP, an LP rekka that is safe on block (real +/-0 safe, not SG's standard faux-safe -6) to confirm into if what she's doing is blocked, her head, an IAD, an air super...and she's the only character with any invincible air move that doesn't cost meter (which is also safe).

    Her c.LK is longer than Cerebella's and Eliza's, if you want to insert sideways complaints about Cerebella's. It's about as long as PW/Double's. However, unlike PW/Double, she can chain LLMM, which means she has more things she can do to confirm both before and after c.LK, and she can combo c.LK->s.HP for a good combo starter. It having the same startup as PW/Double's, then, I do not consider unfair.
    +/-0 is still safe, and since she has a 5f s.LP, at +/-0 she is still able to counterpoke before the opponent can. There was no reason, nor justification, for it to be +3. You can chain or special cancel whenever, so + on block makes no difference if you're following it up with anything else.

    Good day.
     
  9. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Wait Fortune can punish L Brass? How'd I not know this

    @Natezer did you know about this
     
  10. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    My biggest complaint is that you could do c.LK > c.LK as a small frame trap but now it's much more likely to be beaten out by faster crouching jabs and such due to the slower startup and less frame advantage. I think leaving it at +1 instead of +0 would at least allow them to trade.
     
  11. Domo

    Domo literally unblockable 40 frame overheads

    Location:
    Kirkland, WA
    PSN:
    Domo_is_special
    XBL:
    Domo is special
    Beowulf
    Big Band
    Painwheel
    if you want frame traps, just use 5LP
     
  12. ReSpAwNz67

    ReSpAwNz67 But Mike Z, Where's The OTG?

    PSN:
    ReSpAwNz67
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Yea but you don't get the reach. The point of c lk was to provide some pressure on block at a range which let you attempt to go in on someone. But nah. I'll bring it up now though. I guess having a c lk that is also 8f and +6 on block is totally essential cause said character doesn't have too many options. As if. But whatever though just gonna swallow the nerf like every other one like a good boy.
     
  13. Flotilla

    Flotilla trumpets News Writer

    Big Band
    Big Band
    Big Band
    It's a 1f punish since you're -6 and her jab is 5f, but yeah
     
  14. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    May I know what this invuln air move is? I apparently never use it or maybe I'm just bad at reading I'm usually bad at reading.

    Also I miss the greatest poke ever 2LK 5HP it's no longer a blockstring but that's alright I guess.
     
  15. Kit Ballard

    Kit Ballard Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Murfreesboro, TN
    Steam:
    Ӄit ßallarɖ
    PSN:
    K1tBallard
    XBL:
    Kit Ba11ard
    Ms. Fortune
    Valentine
    As a fortune main, I can't believe I don't know this!
     
  16. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    QFT, I think this definitely merits repeating.

    Just as an example, Squigly's fastest button that hits all crouching characters is 8f startup. It Sucks being up close to Fortune as Squigly.
     
  17. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    That's true but it would also catch upback attempts, which LP won't do. She doesn't have access to any other conventional low attack.
     
    Veritas and KhaosMuffins like this.
  18. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    AHAHAhahahahaha I'm an idiot, disregard the "invincible air move" thing, that was before SG came out. I'm tired today. :^P

    She can combo off the first hit of sweep.

    That's not how that comparison works, because different characters are DIFFERENT CHARACTERS.
    Beowulf has armored normals. RoboFortune has beams. Fukua has fireballs. Big Band has armored specials and a move that's fullscreen unblockable if you're on the floor. Cerebella has a super command grab. Are those things essential for Fortune to have, too, because some other character has them?
    Or conversely:
    Fortune has a 5f s.LP, the fastest normal attack in the entire game. Is it necessary for other characters to have that simply because she has it? Or do you take the entire character into account?

    (Would you take a 6f s.LP in return for c.LK being 7f again? If you would, then you are not looking at this correctly at all.)

    Having an adversarial attitude doesn't make you correct, or likely to get listened to.
    You are most certainly not put-upon just because I don't agree with your view, sir or madam. I listened to your complaint and offered counterpoints - this is more than you get from every other developer. You didn't even address my counterpoints, you just continued to whine. If you had any good points initially, they have certainly been stomped out by now.
     
    Flotilla likes this.
  19. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Is jab then late 2LK a frame trap? I dunno what a frame trap is. I'm reading about this now

    Edit: It sounds like I have the right idea.
     
  20. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
    PSN:
    RemiKz_
    Peacock
    Filia
    Cerebella
    If I'm rubbing up against the opponent, sure. Other times requires an assist or being headless, which is why I used the word "conventional".
     
  21. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    cr.LK > st.HP gets you a counter hit against anything that isn't a DP or reversal super, at least. It even beats out Diamond Drop.
     
    Midiman likes this.
  22. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Oh. Secret buffs!
     
  23. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    c.HK(1)->CSF works at any distance, and headless c.HK(1)->QCB+K~Feral works at any distance although it requires headless, but it doesn't require headless in terms of needing the head.
     
  24. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    Idk what kind of mash you people play against but if they are sneaking moves in between cr.lk,cr.lk they are probably a masher or you are terrible for being THAT predictable with your pressure. Either way, it isn't a big deal.

    Perhaps use a faster move... Such as lp rekka since it can be canceled into, or go for a chain into one of her other normals into xx lp rekka. Or frame trap with cr.lk, delay h fiber plus lockdown assist to make it safe.


    This change is extremely tantamount to the Filia jhk nerf where she still has the same options but now she just needs to use different buttons.


    Also, if you are in cr.lk range you aren't playing neutral anymore. You are in the pressure or hitconfirm phase and fortune head off gets stupid pressure and easy confirms, whereas head on she still has great confirms and lp rekka is a ridiculously good pressure tool in that it is ONE OF THE FEW advancing moves in the game that that is completely safe on block, allowing dumb stuff like cr.lk,st.hp xx lp rekka that still moves in against pushblock and strings like cr.lk,st.hp xx L rekka are confirms that combo on hit while moving fortune forward and leaving her plus 0


    It's not like I really think she deserved the nerf, but it is super negligible. The only thing she really lost was an ability to do walking cr.lk x n as pressure, which no character should probably have anyways especially when she has so many avenues towards pressure already along with super safe confirms.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  25. ClarenceMage

    ClarenceMage git gud

    Steam:
    ClarenceMage
    PSN:
    ClarenceMage
    Valentine
    Painwheel
    Big Band
    One thing people are missing is that c.LK was nerfed by removing blockstun, not increasing recovery. This means it's better at pushblock baiting now. Do some pushblock baits.
     
    Midiman likes this.
  26. Kit Ballard

    Kit Ballard Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Murfreesboro, TN
    Steam:
    Ӄit ßallarɖ
    PSN:
    K1tBallard
    XBL:
    Kit Ba11ard
    Ms. Fortune
    Valentine
    Awww...
     
  27. yukideumoreru

    yukideumoreru New Member

    Location:
    japan
    Steam:
    yukideumoreru
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    c.lk nerf is selected to fix ms.fortune's problems as a fighting game character.

    but i don't know ms.fortune's problem,
    so i don't know whether c.lk nerf is correct.

    someone knows her problems?
     

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