Making Use of Both Head States

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by DARKNESSxEAGLE, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

    Location:
    California
    Steam:
    Stuff | Stuff | Stuff | Stuff
    Robo Fortune
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    Uh so on subject.

    I like to be headless when an enemy is too annoying to chase like a parasoul trying to zone or fukua being fukua or squigly doing non stop upback j.hp. Sneeze and nom are pretty freakin' magical in these matchups.

    I like to have head-on when there isn't much of a need to chase. Why risk 150% damage when there's no need to make the ground lava? I like restands I think they look cool.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  2. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    If you're playing headless with the intent on staying away from the opponent and keeping the head close to you, why would you go headless to begin with?

    And if the head isn't close to you, you don't have the option of "just letting them fall onto nom." Not to mention that they could be calling an assist which would incapacitate the head, which also nullifies that option.

    Everything that has to do with the head is situational and more situations are unfavourable than they are favourable. Invincible Fiber is not situational and nets you the same thing as if the head was nearby.

    The most useful use of fiber is as an anti-air to jump ins, which is what is implied when you say "anti-air."

    Squigs isn't going to rush Fortune down to get hit by the end of fiber, Painwheel's going to sit back and wait for that thing all day. Valentine can sit and wait also, but she can also toss shurikens down and tag your fiber anyway. Parasoul doesn't jump high enough for the end of fiber to be at all useful. Filia doesn't really go all that high. etc etc... Very rarely is the end of fiber actually good for something in neutral.

    Fiber's only as useful as the invincibility it has because anyone who goes high enough for Fiber to reach can just avoid it, and you can't convert off the latter hits anyway. You're most likely going to be punished for using it more than you're going to be hitting with it.
     
  3. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    so @worldjem @Camail

    what are favorable conditions in your opinion to go headless?
     
  4. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    During combos, when on offense, or when it's worth taking head damage to be able to tag people who are running away from you (And even this could be an attempt at baiting you into doing it so they can run in).

    Other than that, never go headless.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  5. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Who said anything about keeping the head close and keeping your opponent away? My entire post was a comment on them jumping in, you blocking, and them getting CH nom'd. Or better yet you jump back and make them whiff then catch them with a nom. Use the fact that you can block and use the head at the same time to ruin their attempts to get in.

    If you want to control the ground and make them scared to do something when the head is below them, play headless. The only match up that I say is much easier head-on is peacock. I agree with most of what khaos says. I don't care what anyone says, having the head at your feet is still scary and it forces you to do something about it, having the head behind you is scary because you really cant do anything about it, and having the head just out of reach in front of you is scary. You have to react to the head, which fortune controls. Just because the opponent actually HAS an answer now doesn't mean you can't still play the game. each side has to make decisions and answer to problems the other creates. Losing an invincible dp did not kill the character, nerfing the head didn't kill the character. All this headless hate is irritating and I'm tired as hell so I'm just gonna stop responding to this thread. I've already had to rewrite this stupid post enough times.

    At the very least you should learn both, don't ignore half the character as if she's dead weight. Come to your own conclusions.
     
  6. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    well i did learn both headless and head on. i'm just not confident in doing the headless things at times. i've been facing more peacocks recently.

    but if you block the head stops unless you mean you can use the head in time and hold back to block.....? i'm confuzzled again but @worldjem that was my usual gameplan....minus the combos.

    i ran a set with a few people and concluded depending on the momentum its good for headless. Also sets up strong oki in corner or even midscreen if you position the head right. so i'll continue to play with the idea a little more.
     
  7. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    You did because the only reason to keep the head near fortune is for that very situation where you're running away from the opponent or the opponent is rushing you down, but that's not even the point.

    The point is, why play headless to begin with in that situation when Fiber is the more reliable option?

    Not that there's even any reason to rush fortune down.

    There was always an answer to the head, it's just people didn't figure it out or do it properly until recently. You can harass the head just fine without the 15f cooldown on the head by launching it and sending it fullscreen.

    Fortune's entire gameplan revolves around the head and Fiber. She's not winning any air battles, she's not going to Anti-air anyone without Fiber's invincibility, and she's not going to be able to get in on anyone without some sort of help, be that assist or the head.

    Obviously, you can't ignore the head when it's out there, but it's not that great a threat. Headless Fortune can't do much damage without meter or a situational starter, either.
     
  8. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    You keep saying that, can you tell me how the fuck to do it? Or to which characters it applies?

    If my Parasoul launches it, it goes roughly one training mode square away, not fullscreen.
    The only two moves I can connect after it reliably are j.MK and j.HP, both of which cause the head to be in a perfect placement right behind me
    If I was right on top of the head, I can do Launch xx Pillar, which tosses the head away roughly 2 training mode squares (amazing!!!) and has me 'whiffing' a Pillar (=I'm dead)

    SWEEPING the head sends it farther away than Launching does (roughly 1.3 training mode squares)
    The farthest I can get it is 2.5 training mode squares, via c.LK c.MK c.HK xx M.Tearshot - and that requires me to be pretty close to the head, cus else the M.Tearshot just whiffs
    .. It is also slow enough that you can run in from fullscreen and get a full jumpin combo easily

    If Fortune launches her own head, it goes 3/4 of the screen (btw without having a hitbox, so the opponent can't see you do it and then punch it back; it's fully invincible all the way)
    If Fortune launcher her opponent's head, it goes up vertically and lands exactly where it started

    And this is still completely aside from the simple simple fact that even if it DID work, it wouldn't work with the head behind me - and it gets there quite easily.

    E: Okay, I can do c.HP xx [delayed] M.Tear/H.Tear which is actually pretty good (~2.5 training mode squares - that's still not *EXACTLY* "fullscreen", but at least it's not in my face anymore), but that still requires me to:
    - Be close to the head
    - Not be in front of the head
    - Be in a position where either
    a) Doing a 16f startup move doesn't get interrupted by anything (most notably a nom which would cause me to die on hit while punching the head out of it causes Fortune to take 770 damage, so the risk/reward isn't exactly in my favour)
    b) Something like c.LK c.HP xx M.Tearshot without getting punched by Fortune is feasible (and it's slow enough for her to be able to run in from fullscreen and punch me, so this will be difficult)

    E2: Peacock has Launch xx M.Bang, Fortune has Launch xx TK H.Axekick, both of which are decently neat. Woo! But I don't really play them so uuuuh.

    E3: Okay Parasoul can do c.HP xx L.Egret, s.HK
    This looks totally match reliable!!!! (no)

    E4: With assists coming into play, something like Launch, Shot+Mk Bomber is neat but.. yeah. That's a bit much work for 'harassing is easy'.

    How F-Tier is Parasoul, I wonder?

    No Air mobility, has to preemptively beat out jumpins due to slow startup on moves that go above her (and every single char other than Filia gets above her easily due to Doublejump), deals no damage (espec not when meter comes into play), has no grounded AA worth anything (c.MP beats out IAD approaches but nothing coming from above), can't get in on characters even with an assist (Peacock matchup such a pleasure), amongst the shittiest defence in the game, Tearshot is pretty shit on point, tbc

    Man, I should drop this character.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  9. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    It is likely possible with Filia, Peacock, Squigly and Bella.
    Filia would do c.MP -> s.HK
    Pcock would do s.MK -> MP Bang
    Squigs would do s.HK -> Rigor Mortis (or whatever that powerful punch special is called)
    Bella would do c.MK -> Titan Knuckle

    The only one I'm certain works is c.MK -> Titan Knuckle, but the others likely work for the same reason

    You probably don't want to launch Fortune's head full screen if you have it next to you anymore (especially not with MP Bang or Rigor Mortis) because you can bait a zoning Fortune to come over to you by just mash c.LK on their head and cancel into one of those invul DPs that are all the hype these days and/or an assist until your opponent grows a brain capable enough to recognise that you are in fact baiting them towards you.

    I'm going to try and refrain from steering off topic over the Parasoul statement at the end there.
     
  10. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    You already mentioned what I was going to suggest.

    It applies to almost every character.

    Double can harass the head with Launch > j.HP and Fugazi whenever it's in range.
    Cerebella can do 2MK > 2HP > j.HP and can also do Titan Knuckle on the head at midscreen
    Fortune can Launch > j.HK or axe kick
    Filia/Fukua can 2MP > 5HP > j.HP
    Parasoul can do 2HP > Egret L > 5HK
    Valentine can do Launch > j.HK > j.HP or 2LK > 2MK > 2HK > Shuriken and can tag the head with shuriken in general
    Peacock can do Launch > Bang M and ground bombs
    Painwheel can fly making it totally useless, but she can also harass it with fly-cancel j.HK
    Squigly can do raw Liver Mortis (236LP) or just keep doing Launch > Stancel > 5MK > 5HK > stancel
    Big Band can do whatever into 2HP or 5MP~MP > j.LK > j.HK

    Launching the head allows you to harass the head and be able to jump away if you see fortune moving in.
    If fortune's relying on the head, you can send it away with the tactics listed above.
    And EVERYONE can sweep the head which sends it a decent distance for a universal move.
    Everyone can also snap the head to send it fullscreen, although that costs a meter.

    And because of the new 15f cooldown, everyone can simply tag the head with lights all day.

    Every character has a way to deal with the head and force fortune to come to you.
     
  11. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    I wrote this on the IRC already, but you can't be fucking serious

    c.HP: 16f startup+1f active, L.Egret: 21f recovery, s.HK 16f startup+1f active, Toss: 33f total

    That's a total of 88 Frames of doing shit before I get the first useful thing out

    Yay, if you sit at fullscreen allowing me to do unsafe things for one and a half seconds, I get to deal 1200 damage to you (and be back to square one after a single Zoom s.HK)

    E: Okay you apparently *are* listing Snap as a serious way of handling the head.
    I can troll myself, there's no need for this.
     
  12. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    I actually didn't think of snap as an option for dealing with the head until you mentioned it in IRC, but it IS there and it does send it back fullscreen, but I don't think people want to spend a meter to do that when they can just get free damage by harassing the head anyway or sending it meterlessly.

    Also, you do realise that after launching the head, if fortune starts moving in, you can just jump cancel it, right?
     
  13. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    If I wait to jump cancel, I can't even do the L.Egret shit anymore, so .. not really?

    c.HP jumpback gets me into the corner in roughly 10 seconds (but hey I will deal 1k damage!)
    c.HP jumpforward makes me land right on top of the head in fortunes face
    c.HP neutraljump?? might be usable?
    Any of these force the char with the worst air mobility by far into the air btw

    My c.HK has 18f startup, deals 600 damage to you and is me whiffing a sweep (= free way in)
    Nom has 20f startup and flat kills me if it hits
    That's not a good risk/reward

    Yes I can poke c.LKs at it, but AGAIN, that means I AM NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE
    At fullscreen distance, I can get two c.LKs on Fortune's head before she's in my face, that's 200 damage and ZERO threat to the body

    Of course there are ways of dealing with the head, it would be kinda shit if I got an autoloss for you doing jumpback safe special
    But don't act like dealing with the head is leaps and bounds easier than using it
    And don't tell me that the head is easy to beat because you can punch it forever if the opponent died in front of his console/pc
     
  14. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    I'm saying being headless gives the opponent free damage and forces Fortune to go in, potentially putting herself in an unadvantageous situation. 90% of the time Fortune will try to jump at you to defend the head because going in on the ground risks getting tagged by the normals you're using on the head.
    In this case you can call an anti-air/DP assist to at the very least force her to block, and go in for more pressure.
     
  15. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    Alternatively:
    Being a character without long range tools forces head-on Fortune to go in, potentially putting her in a disadvantageous position. 90% of the time she will jump, because she could run into some normal on the ground. In this case the defender calls an anti-air/DP assist to at the very least force her to block, and go in for more pressure.

    Are you even reading what you're writing? "This is a rushdown character, so I have to go in; then I chose a dumb way of moving in, don't bait my opponents obvious defence, and then I'm in a bad position. This character sucks."?????? What the fuck?

    If the opponent punches your head, you cross 3/4 of the screen safely without them being ANY sort of a threat, and then you have to do the classic rushdown RPS of "Do they expect me to wait around, to go in quick go back, to go high, to go low, to dash throw, to jumpblock+assistcall, whatever?" which you would have to do ANYWAYS, except now you avoided the entire part of the neutral where you are supposed to be in the disadvantage, at the price of taking 500 damage.
     
  16. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    Maybe one of you 2 should go make a thread on how to deal with the head (suitable for the beginner subforum)/how to approach when the head is getting hit (suitable for the Ms Fortune subforum) so that your pretty-much-off-topic conversation is contained in a place that people who don't want to see it don't have to.

    One of you is a god-damned mod yet you've still pretty much derailed the thread from 'making use of both head states' to 'i think you should just use one', get it together and either post something constructive or stop posting altogether.
     
    View619 and CaioLugon like this.
  17. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    All I'm gonna say is...
    Slide when headless is pretty amazing and I can't believe I've been sleeping on it for so long. You're probably not gonna low-profile most characers' main jump-ins with it, but it's still good for avoiding attacks and pressuring/frame trapping when the head is nearby/when you kick the head.
     
  18. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    ViewThePhenom
    Painwheel
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    Can we get a diligent moderator to come in here and clean up, please?
     
  19. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    so let's discuss ideals ways of going into headless.

    pretty much self explanatory. after knockdown go headless if you covered 3/4ths of the stage.

    cause if they tech towards you. they're near the head. if tech backwards...they still have to deal with it.

    another way is obv super, but obv don't do it in the corner UNLESS you know it will kill.


    depending on the character.....you can just do it in neutral for the hell of it and start there.

    Let's also discuss the implementation from headless to headon.

    cat call cancel i find its use in feinting. since most people either low block or jump around alot i now zoom into cat cancel so that i can position the head close to me so i can s hk it and go on.

    matchups like PW you must head-on. i ain't one for taking 150% damage for a willy nilly combo NOT to mention the fear of resets if they run parasoul pillar(i've seen it and had to deal with it).any more suggestions on the transitions that can be deemed battle worthy?
     
  20. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    You can take the head off in neutral vs any character, really. Like... just get above them and use headspike. They can't do anything about it unless they already have a DP assist coming out.

    Your best option is to take the head off mid-combo. That requires you landing a hit first and still having your OTG, though.
     
  21. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    basically after j hk.
     
  22. SkippyMcYay

    SkippyMcYay this gai

    Location:
    Central Valley, CA
    Steam:
    Insaneload
    PSN:
    SkippyMcYay
    Peacock
    Ms. Fortune
    Double
    I don't know how many times I've tried a (formerly invincible) fiber and got slide instead, and still beat my opponent's move cuz of low profile
     

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