Making Use of Both Head States

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by DARKNESSxEAGLE, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    So up until recently I've only ever played headless, my first move always being jump back and toss head or wait for them to attack and counter with the oddly decided invulnerability of tossing the head while on the ground. It's become apparent that in order to win certain matches I'm gonna have to start switching between headless and head-on more frequently.

    There are obvious differences that will probably be the foundation of which state is used for which situation, i.e. Headless has no hit invulnerable normals so if an opponent has an obnoxious lockdown assist it's best to go head-on unless you're focusing on zoning. These situations will likely not be solely match-up based and it's more likely that the different head states' usefulness will be determined by the playstyle of the individual.

    I haven't spent much time experimenting with this and have little head-on experience to compliment my headless experience so I was hoping that other people would use this thread to build a collection of suggestions and other such things about when to take the head off and when to put it back on.
     
  2. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    honestly with these changes.....i think going head on for the majority of the time is just best. i've yet to find a viable way to go into headless when all everyone does now is just hit the head. not to mention the removal of j hp into cat spike......unless someone can give me ideas i'm sticking to head on for the majority of my fights and will only use heads when the situation calls for it.
     
  3. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    - There are ways of removing the head aside from combos (and you can actually do it in combos via Ground super, and you don't actually need it to combo..)
    - It is possible to position the head in a way that it can't easily be attacked (ie, behind the opponent)
    - You can protect it by moving in (they are just whiffing attacks at midrange, that means you have a free way in..)
    - It's feasible to simply predict the timing of such an attack and flat beat it out (getting nommed out of trying to punch the head is always funnnnn)

    - Head still provides endless pressure, safe everything, protects you from a ton of shit, tbc

    I'm sure it's sad that your gameplan can't be "jumpback headtoss, wait for the default win because the opponent can't move and can't touch you" anymore, but headless not *exactly* bad now.
     
    Broseidon Rex, DDB and ClarenceMage like this.
  4. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    i don't jumpback headtoss, never did. so don't assume my gameplan to be that typical fortune play.

    what i'm saying is that headless seems more situational. and i simply can't trust my neutral to removing my head.

    also about the third bullet. unless its vs 1 person the team aspect mucks it up.
    pm me on what exactly i should be doing with fortune. cause until then i'd rather keep my head on my shoulders and not have to run for my head.

    edit: is air cat spike minus?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  5. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    People don't use the head near fortune, it's amazing. React to incoming attacks/jump ins with nom and you might get the hit.

    Headless still has the same fundamental strengths it always had. You just have to play smart, throw away the flow chart. Headless is still way better in neutral, the REAL nerf was the dp.

    Protect the head like you protect an assist, if that fails then you don't know how to protect your assists.
     
  6. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    wait....you can NOM a jump in?......omg i must test this out then. also when i go headless why do people want to be more aggressive and how would you go about approaching such? use sneeze?
     
  7. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, sneeze is the Head-less dp now. The way to play it now is going to be find a good time to get the head off (i.e. with space to cover it as the body, or during your own pressure), otherwise play Head-on until you can. Nice to see that Head-on matters now for things besides damage.
     
  8. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    Headless is still good ye. If people are attacking your head just jump at them and hold back, they don't have particularly great options unless they know you're going to do that (*gasp* mind games). Also s.HK on the head all day, much safer way to move it around than sliding, however don't stop sliding around while you're doing other stuff because that's what I'd call wasted time.

    Another thing is that unless you're at a distance you can easily confirm off of a slide there is absolutely no reason not to try cancelling into nom after the slide; if it's blocked then you don't have to worry about extra cooldown and if it hits you get a fullscreen confirm.


    Anyway topic-specific notes (maybe i should just make a training diary or something for this stuff):

    s.HP is the most fun poke in the game right now and I'm pretty sure that it's very good since you can cancel into rekka from most ranges and get hits. Getting beaten up by Woofly's head-on Fortune is just showing me that she has superior mixup options thanks to the beauty that is j.HP, but she doesn't have the pressure so he pretty much has to rely on me being a wuss and holding down+back at all times or forcing me into block with an assist if he wants to hold me in place. Headless Fortune obviously has the ability just to use the head and not risk having an assist character share damage with you as well as letting you save your assist uses for when you actually need them.

    At the moment I'm gonna have to agree with View's "just play head on until headless makes sense" because it's a lot easier to play defensively and get a grasp on what your opponent plays like. Going in with headless Fortune straight away means you either get beaten or don't have much of a chance to learn how your opponent plays because you need to keep them locked down as much as possible if you want to win, letting them out is a big risk because headless defense is not great. I don't (want to) think that head-on play is limited to figuring out how your opponent plays though and seeing the kind of stuff Woofly - who as you may have guessed by now is the only other good Fortune I get to play against - pulls on me it's evident that she has very useful offensive stuff.

    I think I need to play more against other characters with head-on to see what she's good at tearing down (I suspect head on may be the better option against a Peacock like Peck's so yeah experimentation ahoy) and then I'll post more in here if it's significant.
     
  9. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    basically as i said when it's more favorable use your head instead of immediately using headless.

    on another note i feel as though with teams depending on the opponent's assist keep your head on until alteast you're dealing or taken out the assist with the invinci dp. what's your guys take on the situation?
     
  10. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

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    There is no reason to go headless, now. Just stick to head-on and you'll do fine.
     
  11. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

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    Except the excellent pressure of head-less and ability to attack with a puppet while the body can move separately? Head-less is still a good puppet character, it's just not the only version of Fortune worth using anymore. At least, that's how I see it.
     
  12. Clawsome Bombs

    Clawsome Bombs H E I S T B O Y S before GTAV lol

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    *hold HP with head behind opponent before starting these block strings*

    St.lp>st.mp>st.mk>Cat Scratch L>release HP

    St.lp>st.mp>Cat Scratch L>release HP

    St.lk>st.mp>st.mk(1)>Cat Scratch L>release HP

    The head might get a counter hit if they push block wrong while you mix these up.

    Also, this is an obvious cross up, but catches people sometimes

    *head behind opponent*

    Any chain or string>Feline Allergies>walk under>any attack
     
  13. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    If what you mean is "you can do fine when just playing head on" then I agree. You can also do fine when just playing headless. But I'm under the impression you can do a whole lot better if you know what state to use and when.
     
  14. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    I suggest making "MU" charts for head-on x headless in other MUs.

    With this:

    Head-on x Headless

    vs Squigly - n x n
    vs Fortune - n x n
    vs Peacock - n x n
    vs Painwheel - n x n
    vs Filia - n x n
    vs Cerebella - n x n
    vs Valentine - n x n
    vs Parasoul - n x n
    vs Double - n x n
    vs BigBand - n x n
    vs Fukua - n x n

    I'll think about it later cause I have to go now, but you guys could try filling this up.
     
  15. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    applicable towards a 1v1 ideally? cause with teams....its a bit more....complicated to me.
     
  16. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    I think you are putting way too much emphasis on teams. Yes, assists change neutral and defense and offense, but there is a lot to be said about 1v1 math ups that provides useful information and discussion for all cases. We know what assists do, just because they have a drastic impact doesn't mean they make the game drastically more complex. In the end it's just one mechanic on top of all the other things that happen in a 1v1.

    As for match ups, I would think that headless vs squigly is really good because it will shut down j.hp zoning pretty hard, and her divekick angle makes fiber whiff anyway if she is on top of you.

    And vs peacock I think I might be a fan of pbgc hk fiber into headspike.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  17. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    I understand what you're saying, but for some reason my mind doesn't comprehend on how i'm putting too much emphasis. one guy after using giant step as assist and i went headless in the corner for mix up and killed the point and then big band was his anchor and i killed him quickly. His assist was giant step at the time.
    next round he went with brass knuckles and peacock for point instead of his parasoul. i knew exactly what he was aiming for with that assist and the point so i go headless......it did not go so well. My idea of fortune was never to do > jump back cat spike>. i'm not ragging on headless nor am i crying about her not being so brain dead(thank god they nerfed cat roll cause that was just....) i'm trying to say that with fortune depending on the point and the anchor you might want to focus on
    A. keep your head until you get a snap then headless mode in corner
    B: pick a assist that corner carries so you can headless.

    but this isn't about teams right now so i'll leave it at that and you guys concoct a matchup chart.

    Can TK cat spike allow enough frame advantage for sometime?
    does red sev got vids on youtube for me to watch?
     
  18. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
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    I went though this in my game mechanics thread but, when you attack during a jump there's a 2 frame landing animation during which you cannot block, throw tech or jump. If you preemptively activate the head as your opponent jumps towards you, they will get tripped on the way down. You can also sometimes hit their airborne recovery frames on whatever move they're doing.

    If you don't attack during your jump, those 2 landing frames still occur but you're allowed to cancel it into block, attack, jump, etc.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
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  19. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    At the cost of a reversal and a not-so-good head which is more easily punishable because the 15f cooldown plus you get unscaled damage on the head and you can easily pushblock fortune and the head simply by pushblocking the head.

    She's just way more risky to play as and head-on is just as strong now because headless is now weaker. Risking unnecessary damage for something head-on can sorta pull off on its own.

    While headless you lose your best anti air and it's harder to go a2a against anyone, leaving the ground as the safer place for fortune but you can keep headless at bay because her mobility option is no longer invincible and you can punish the head once it misses. You no longer have to worry about a follow up after zoom or headbutt unless whiffed on purpose which is still only one hit to block. I just don't see the pressure anymore. She's still good mind you and there are ways to get her going but I just prefer to keep the head on because I find approaching is much more easier.

    Headless can still mess you up for being an idiot but that's all I really see that's good about her anymore.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  20. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    You don't lose your best anti-air, you can still trade with it or outright beat a jump in with fiber, which happened with the old fiber. You lose a reversal and a pbgc, but not an anti-air. Headless still has a stronger neutral game, that shouldn't even be an issue.

    Her mobility option never needed invincibility, that only matters if you were under pressure.

    If you seriously think that the zoom nom nerf was a big deal then you didn't face anyone who knew how to play vs fortune, this "nerf" was actually good because you can os a nom without always having one more second of cooldown.

    The cooldown was a real nerf, most evidently in the peacock match up, but that just means you have to protect the head, oh no you have to play smart.

    The pressure is the same, the head being at their feet is still scary. I don't see how you don't see the pressure, the tools are all still there.
     
  21. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    her mobility vs peacock funny story....but seriously. as easy it is to say application is a bit different. can i get videos of someone other than khaos's fortune perhaps? cause just because a fortune has to play smart you'd have to obviously consider that a peacock player would be just as smart or smarter so going headless seems.... unneeded. of course you can always go for the jump in and what not but a smart peacock wouldn't just attack away relentlessly you can also try to predict the teleport i guess but in the meantime peacock is having a fun time with chip damage all around. while the tools are still there. there are better times to use them. needless to say i wouldn't suggest playing fortune solo. btw is there a usefulness in the cat call cancel? @Camail
    i say screw playing the character and just play the player.
     
  22. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Trying to play the player before you play the character is like trying to run before you can walk. And yea I am aware that peacock players can be smart, I've faced a few, but maybe you weren't here before the fortune nerfs because you could play her dumb and do really well.

    And as I've said and hinted at, fullscreen headless vs peacock can be annoying, but you still get the head eating the ground bombs so the pattern is easier to escape from. Can you mash sneeze to save your head from fullscreen? No. Can you play well and protect the head in ways that require thought? Yes. This is why I was saying pbgc fiber then headspike was a potentially good move, it breaks the pattern and creates holes while moving forward and pressuring the peacock with headspike. At which point peacock can make adjustments and then you will too and the game progresses.
     
  23. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    It kinda hurts to read this. Do you people really think that fullscreen confirms, the ability to land moves while blocking and having insane pressure isn't worth giving up an invulnerable DP (which is notably the least safe DP in the game on block)? If you're on the defensive so much that you need an invul reversal (and for whatever reason you're not content with your supers) to play the game effectively then I can't be too sure you win very many matches with either state to be honest.

    incoming rant

    Headless can pretty much stop your opponent from doing anything outside of the air. If you get them in block then you're at a far bigger advantage than getting someone to block with the head on because, once again, the head lets you do all sorts of wonderful blockstrings and, when it eventually hits, gives you what is arguably the easiest conversion in the game.

    But surprise surprise, something this good comes with weaknesses: You lose your invul DP and if through some lack of diligence you get your head caught in front of them with you on the other end of the screen you actually have to start playing a 2 player game again. It's not a particularly difficult 2 player game either, as it's essentially in your favor. Just jump forward then hold back. They can attack you with their DP which is likely their plan and will lead to you punishing them or there will be a nice pause after which they will jump at you and grab you, in which case you react to them ceasing their attacks on the head and tech the grab. Either way, your head is probably out of its 15 frames of cooldown by now and you can get back to screwing them over.

    "Oh but if headless is that good then why even make this thread"

    As it happens, (good) fighting games can't be played by just following an excruciatingly simple flow chart. If your opponent happens to possess more skill than a cheaply trained chihuahua then they might do things such as making you think they're gonna grab you out of the air, or pull some good zoning with Peacock which involves locking down the head with bombs (one of many examples, hopefully this one is comprehensive enough for the majority) then you're going to have to rethink your strategy. Note that in this example you aren't wanting to play head-on for an invul DP but because you don't want to suffer the damage from said bombs while you make your way in.
    Another example would be Painwheel where your head serves very few uses other than catching faulty jump-ins where they forget about, in this case you probably will want your invul DP.

    If 2 examples referring to less than a quarter of the cast is enough to have convinced you that head on is still the only true god then go fight against a good Bella and see how far you get with the head on. In fact, don't even bother as a Fortune player who actually knows how to play headless has already done so for you:
    If you still want to insist that this is not the case anymore because she doesn't have an invulnerable DP then go and test it yourself. What's easier, zoning them out while headless thereby making all of her attempted jump-ins pretty much useless (farewell j.HK) or getting up close and funky with your head attached? Alternatively you can fight me with various characters and I can show you that headless Fortune is pretty good, I'm pretty confident that I can beat most of the people in this thread that believe an invul reversal is necessary for a character's viability especially if I'm just going solo Fortune.
     
  24. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    I would like to point out that headless block strings are kinda meh and always have been because pushblocking the head sends fortune flying. Blockstrings in general aren't good in this game unless it is a multi hit move and a lockdown assist.
     
  25. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    no.

    and no one answered my question about TK headspike. i'm not going headless in neutral(unless i got corner for yeh. Ever. that and no one answered my question about finding any usefulness in finding the cat call special?

    also do any of you fortune people call back the head...like ever?
     
  26. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Tk headspike makes very little sense, it should be obvious as to why. And yes I use zoom xx call sometimes because I feel comfortable with both sides and switching up play styles puts you at an advantage.

    The fact that you stubbornly refuse to use headless in neutral and go as far to make such an absolute claim that you will never do so makes me sad, and leads me to think that you haven't learned everything about this character.
     
  27. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    Most likely i haven't learned everything about fortune,but i don't know who to add on here that plays fortune and who would be kind to explain to me why some ****head would put out cat spike at start of the match or in neutral (depending on distance i would find it plausible). explain to me why TK headspikes makes little sense. i want an explanation, i don't want to trust frame data of in game told me.

    its frustrating for the fact that i just want to find a way to use cat spike AS a pressure tool. not to throw out like a derp. it would be helpful to have a healthy set vs someone that plays both sides and that i can play solo so i can see the hell you guys are talking about.
     
  28. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    I just don't believe headless is of any use when I can do nearly the same thing and more without the risk of having my head off.

    If someone knew how to fight headless (which no one seems to have learned yet) they'd know the head is of no threat if you constantly launch it pretty much forcing fortune to make a move and because most characters have tools to stop her when the head isn't doing pressure it mostly seems hopeless unless you're a big dummy and let the head cooldown to get get sneezed.

    I'm not saying it isn't impossible or it's bad (Infact I still go headless because the nerfs hardly affect my style of play) I'm just saying there doesn't seem to be any reason to fear the head anymore and that head-on is just as strong but with less risk.
     
  29. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    How do I launch something that is behind me?
     
  30. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    just checked the TK catspike.......that made me sad LOL.
    i can still why headless would be useful though but i'm not sure how to navigate my head when peacock does her runaway stuff...well actually i do.....until they pick an assist PURPOSELY to knock the head while its in cool down. so.........i need to figure this out
     
  31. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    OK I've calmed down a little now, this prospect that head-on can do the same kind of thing with less risk is presumably due to people believing assists are a safer replacement for the head (as you can't exactly lock them down and proceed into a mixup while head-on without one) but, if your assist gets caught then another one of your team members is taking full damage and can do nothing about it, whereas the head only takes 50% damage.

    If you get caught at the same time as the assist that's 200% damage split over 2 characters with the possibility of a double snap into a fully dead character without them having to worry about anything. Assists are not safer, people just seem to have less knowledge of how to deal with what is typically one of the most prominent factors of a team based fighter.

    Aside from that, the head isn't always right next to you when it starts its moves, whereas assists are. You can use the head and then you can use an assist if you need to. So 'the same and more' for head-on Fortune is starting to look like a little bit of an exaggeration. In fact, a little experimentation and contemplation suggests that head-on and headless both do notably different things, both of which can lead to victory. In some cases head-on is better than headless, in others it is the opposite (and not limited solely to matchups, but other such things as play-styles and the current pace of the match).

    That is the purpose of this thread; to identify and discuss situations in which one state is better than the other, if there are disagreements it would be better that no one argues in such an aggressive way as I did but do not refrain from voicing your opinion constructively (such is the purpose of discussion).
     
  32. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Headless is still strong because it still controls the ground pretty well. The opponent has to be careful when pressing a button or making a risky maneuver when head is right on top of them. The nerf to Fiber is pretty substantial, though. Headless still has the better neutral game, and even with the speed up j.HP isn't really a great air-to-air so losing that is no real biggie. Also, not enough people make use of slide. It's actually pretty damn good and you can easily use it for frame traps when the opponent is sandwiched.

    Head-on is still a weaker Filia but because of the Fiber Upper nerf there's actual reason to play head-on aside from "I just like playing head-on and don't know how to play headless".

    On catspike: It's safe to throw out from basically anywhere. Not many characters can do anything about jump back > headspike so there's nothing wrong with that option. Typically you should have frame advantage on block when using it (I often get above the opponent, throw out headspike, and either come down with a j.LK or go for an empty jump into a low). That's easily pushblockable, though, so I'm not sure why you'd want to TK headspike (in some of my matches I do TK headspike but 100% of the time that's actually just an execution error but my execution is garbage).

    On blockstrings, headless Fortune's sandwich pressure is pretty good, even if you can pushblock the head. If you anticipate the pushblock then you can just Fiber upper back in and go for a high/empty jump low/throw. And besides, you should have assists to keep your opponent locked down, anyways.

    Peacock is 1000x more obnoxious with the head cooldown change. Not sure whether I like head-on or headless vs Peacock more.... (And @Camail, I tried PBGC'ing into Fiber but that didn't work so well for me since an item drop or airplane or even an assist was always there to stop me. Though I'm probably just doing it at improper times. You should totally play against McPeanuts or TJ Gamer.)

    Right now my gameplan is to land a hit with head-on Fortune, do a catspike combo and take them to the corner, then start the vortex off of a cr.HK > Rekka with the opponent being sandwiched. Or at least that will eventually be my gameplan... I keep dropping stuff lately.

    Also, I don't get what the problem is with flowchart-y play. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, but someone keeps falling for it, then that's on them. If you have to find something else, then find something else.

    Don't play solo, it's bad for you. Get a DP assist and a pressure/neutral game assist and make your life easier on yourself.
     
  33. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    If the Peacock player is intentionally tossing out LK and MK bombs to lockdown your head then you can first of all rejoice that there won't be any HK bomber so the only aerial hazards will be Peacock's air normals and item drops. If you don't feel the damage is worth it then you can try using s.HK on the head to get it over to Peacock and you should probably try to call it back as soon as possible.

    As for head-on, well, I'm primarily a headless player so my advice won't be as valid as most other Fortune players' but if it's anything like with the other air dashers then air dashes at a mid jump height to avoid any of Peacock's ground projectiles (and MP Bang) while moving forward quickly is a must. I believe air dash is fast enough to avoid a shadow of impending doom if it is locking onto you during the dash (test in training before testing in a match to confirm).
     
  34. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Yea I need to play vs one of those two, sadly worldjem didn't save any of our matched on his stream so I can't figure out why it was working. Maybe they use different patterns. My one guess right now is to do it during hp bang, it should get away from any assist in time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  35. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    It's not i IAD i even timed my dashes.. shadow catches you still. @KhaosMuffins i wanted a TK cat spike to have frame advantage...like alot...apparently you can get jabbed out.

    the problem with using headless at some points isn't even the fact of the cool down but which character you're facing and 9/10 the assist which in beta i expect brass knuckles if someone uses peacock and it becomes the perfect team for killing fortune cause brass knuckles knocks your head back. you might as well put it BACK on snap wimpy peacock and then do headless for big band.
    @Camail sorry to confuse, but here's how i stand. if i snap someone and they don't have an assist to push back head then i always air cat spike right above so i can do w.e fortune can do. once they start nipping at the head then i'm going in which is simple. but when it comes to assist that have the purpose of keeping head out. then no i'm keeping head on till i can atleast find some way to put myself in decent way to set up headless. because i feel like atleast my style of fortune is setting up my headless now. before the nerfs i would j hp into headless.

    @DARKNESSxEAGLE explain to me this again

    i'm sorely confused cause can't she be waiting for you then call assist.....then you block it. but peacock is expecting you to block bomber so throws out 236 hp which covers double.....plus don't double players use M horny bomber?(i'm not changing that typo)
     
  36. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    I was referring to Peacock's HK type bomb (236HK which is the plane that aims onto your horizontal position when launched), she's not able to use that while her MK (car) and LK (walk) bombs are on the stage.
     
  37. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    Headless can help in neutral game in the sense that the opponent can't just run away from fortune the entire time, but she still needs to get the head near the opponent, which is difficult. Fullscreen poke while the opponent is waiting for it will just get you pushblocked. If they attack the head you can punish them, but the opponent can also be smart and just launch the head and jump block, or when attacking the head, they can cancel into super and counter you trying to punish them (which also nets them damage on the head even if you block it), or they can do a simple combo into sending the head fullscreen and then fortune has to get in with it all over again.

    They can also simply avoid the head entirely by being in the air, which is where every single character does their neutral game, and Fortune's air normals are some of the worse to AtA with in the game.

    No matter how you look at it, you're giving the opponent free damage on fortune just by having the head off, and you're giving up a very much needed reversal and anti-air in a game that is heavily played in the air.

    Headless Fortune is basically just the ground version of Painwheel, at this point.
     
  38. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    ViewThePhenom
    Painwheel
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    To be fair, some characters have better options when they focus more on staying grounded (Bella, Parasol, Peacock, Big Band), it's just that most players love spending all their time in the air. So, not every character's optimal position during neutral is in the air. As far as AA is concerned, you still have Fiber Upper's great reach, what you're actually losing is the reversal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  39. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    so when to use head in a preferred situation?

    what causes a hard knockdown? super into cancel is awesome.
     
  40. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    The hitbox for hk fiber upper is at ground level during the invincibility frames, the hit box only extends once her hurt box extend to her limbs. I don't think that you actually give up the anti-air potential of the fiber upper by removing the invincibility. Unless you are exclusively considering jump ins that beat the dp when it would normally whiff on invincibility frames. In that case you can do what I said and just keep the head close and let them fall into nom, if you find that they are being overly aggressive you can opt to keep the head within nom range and adjust the position through cr.lk. You can't get a full combo off the anti-air, but you can still do it. As an anti-air I don't see much of a change, but I'm interested i what cases you were thinking of that it would matter (of course we would have to be careful not to accidentally start talking about it as a reversal).
     

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