I Think Fortune Needs Some Serious Changes

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by DARKNESSxEAGLE, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    Dunno; didn't pick up Fortune in SDE. But I really liked the Beta change, and I was okay with the tradeoff (damage nerf/reduced hitstun). If that means we have to learn new combos, then whatevs. Everyone has to re-learn combos eventually.
     
  2. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Retro all of your arguments rely entirely on feeling and not any reason. Why not use the otg early? Does it REALLY matter? Whatever happens inside a combo is mostly irrelevant, damage is damage (yes, a little less damage) whether the timings are awkward or new or w/e. That part shouldn't even be where the discussion lies. What we need to consider is reset potential and neutral game potential.

    Considering the current beta keeps the -2f start up we can assume both versions have that. In which case the poking qualities of both are pretty much the same. The only problem then is being able to convert, head on already has a hard time getting a hit, so reducing her ability to confirm off of j.hp would be rather annoying. I don't think the faster falling speed of the beta j.hp would compensate for the shorter hitstop in terms of confirmability. So they are even on poking, but encore j.hp wins out on confirmability.

    Reset potential is the only place where I Think beta j.hp can make a case. It is a pretty strong reset move because the hitstop is short and allows for resets in different positions. There are restands and tick throws and I'm sure there would be a few weird cross ups, but these are tools that head on fortune already has. She is already the stronger character in terms of resets because her IAD is lower and faster. Should she be even scarier during a combo and sacrifice confirmability? I dunno where else to go with this, the new changes are coming on fast and with the new super thing I honestly don't know. I just want SOMETHING. I just want something that stays the same.
     
  3. Stuff

    Stuff Lore Master Lord of Lore

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    Robo Fortune
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    I feel like I should argue why I want the old beta j.hp but I know everyone will just say the equivalent of "I don't want to learn something new." Granted I don't want to play fortune the old way but I always felt faster less knockback j.hp made fortune fun.

    If you guys don't want to mess with new things then fine.
     
  4. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Whether or not the OTG is used actually does matter because of how her ground super works now. Opponents can tech earlier than before on blue knockdown.

    As for the confirmability, I did say it was slightly harder to confirm because of how it knocks downwards, but I suggest you guys test this out yourselves in matches and/or training mode to see if it's noticeably more difficult.

    And to be perfectly honest, I still hardly ever get hits with j.HP after playing matches in the beta, hehe. The range is still short, but it being faster makes it a nicer jump-in, at least.
     
  5. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

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    @Camail, how is it harder to confirm, when you can ADC, j.LP/LK, j.HP, land, ground shenanigans with the lower knockback? I'd rather have the reset potential, since resets have become more prominent and more necessary since 240 Undizzy became a thing.

    @KhaosMuffins, I found it easier to confirm with lower knockback. The old/current knockback just feels awkward.
     
  6. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    The distances are different, and that does help its confirmability , but the shorter hitstop makes it harder to confirm. Your suggestion of a hit confirm string is pretty unrealistic because you will almost always be using your AD in order to get in with the j.hp, and in the end khaos has kind of made it moot because even with the 2 frame buff its still a pretty garbage poke. I'm still on the fence, I was originally in favor of testing out the new j.hp a lot longer than the amount of time we have had with it, and the original knockback feeling awkward to you is, again, not useful data because you really didn't spend much time playing with the original knockback in addition to being entirely subjective. That's just as useful as me saying I feel comfortable with it because I am used to val's j.hp knockback which is waaaaay more prominent.

    To be quite honest, it doesn't matter either way? There's a reason why mike is actually letting us have input on this. I honestly don't think the additional reset potential is that big of a deal, or that the restand is that big of a deal, it is marginally more variety and I can't bring myself to have a strong opinion either way anymore.
     
  7. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    - The hitstop is the same.
    - I found it EASIER to confirm with the knock-down part because they'd always be below you, rather than having to adjust. You can learn one setup and use that.
    - Original knockback feels awkward to me, always did, heh.
    - The opponent can tech at the same time they always could after her ground super; their reaction is unchanged, Fortune is stuck for like 9f longer.
     
  8. Adeveis

    Adeveis PS3 Skullbats Host

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    Does anyone like the change to fiber upper? I have a weird mixed feel about it. I hate it but at the same time im ok with it. It does make head on more viable, and headless less stupid.
     
  9. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    I like it. (^.^)
     
  10. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    I do, too
     
  11. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    I'm a fan of every change other than the super nerf. Headless fortune is still a fun puppet character despite nerfs, and head on is pretty much a net neutral for me. I need to start messing around with s.hp more though because it seems nice.
     
  12. Clawsome Bombs

    Clawsome Bombs H E I S T B O Y S before GTAV lol

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    Just don't take away my negative edge headbutts. I'm in love with them now. Being able to Cat Scratch once then release an attack to continue pressure/extend combos midscreen is magic.
     
  13. Stonechimes

    Stonechimes Well-Known Member

    Ms. Fortune
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    That makes me sad.

    Not that headless fiber didn't need a nerf, but a rule like "can't command head when a special is blocked" would make more sense (IMO). As it is, you simply wouldn't use fiber as an attack, unless it's part of a combo (most of them you could substitute with headless HK anyway). You wouldn't even poke airborne enemies with it, it's like Squigly's j.HP in that it has range but trades badly, except in this case losing the trade means the opponent is falling into your face for a full combo, and winning the trade doesn't get you shit.
     
  14. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Yes, except that leaves headless Fortune negative on every special, and would overall make her MUCH less versatile as a character.
    Also, you could still do Fiber~Zoom (during the invincible startup of Fiber, when it hasn't been blocked yet), and have the Zoom touch them second, which would still make it safe.
    I'm sorta surprised people don't think about that stuff. Guess y'all are really in love with those invincible reversals, eh.

    [edit] Fortune's HK Fiber does not have vulnerable areas out anywhere until it also has hit areas. It can ONLY trade or win, same with Cerebella's Titan Knuckle etc. That's reasonably good for a move even without invincibility!

    You don't lose or win a trade...and winning the encounter puts them back out, in the air, far away from you, probably by the head. It is a pet peeve of mine that unless a move leads to a full combo it doesn't matter that it does damage or moves the opponent or costs them meter or whatever. That's a complete scrub mindset.

    Headless Fortune has SO MUCH crazy pressure and full stage shenanigans, not to mention a low-profile slide, that her having to block up close bothers me zero.
    Once again, I am not here to argue. Especially with people who don't look at the entire picture, I guess.
     
  15. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is here to argue as much as bounce ideas off you and ask your thought process behind things.
     
  16. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    My thought process is I'd like to be able to add pink visual effects, change her move motions and call her a new character.

    But instead of that, we have this.
     
  17. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Kawaii robo fortune?
     
  18. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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  19. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

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    Now I want a Decapre color for Miss Fortune.
     
  20. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    Robo-Fortune will get it.
     
    Flotilla likes this.
  21. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    Which means CAMMY COLOR FOR FORTUNE? I'd use that shit all day.
     
    KhaosMuffins likes this.
  22. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    beta fortune is fun yes thank you
     
  23. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Cammy has a cat costume, so it only makes sense that a cat has a cammy costume.
     
    dylanx0199, DDB and RetroStation like this.
  24. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    I just had a great idea (that's probably not gonna get in but oh Yeezus I want this).

    What if after launching the head with s.HK, Fortune could send it flying like a volleyball with j.HK? It'd give her another way to move the head around and allow it to approach from different angles.
     
    Camail, RemiKz and DARKNESSxEAGLE like this.
  25. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

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    I'd take that in exchange for the head's red hitbox as it falls back down being removed (which is also probably the easiest way to make it work, judging by what happens when the head hits an opponent). I'm pretty it'd be too good though as the opponent's options would be very limited. I also don't wanna tarnish the balance that I feel Fortune has right now.

    I guess a beta test couldn't hurt too much during the next slew of experiments though.
     
  26. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    If you try and get rid of my juggle combos I will find you and cut you.
     
  27. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

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    with what? i already trimmmed her nails. they look PUURTY
     
  28. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    Turns out, he was!!
     

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