I Think Fortune Needs Some Serious Changes

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by DARKNESSxEAGLE, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. Pali

    Pali Active Member

    PSN:
    Heavyjugz
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    How about making supers punishable too, quite a few characters can get away with just using a super and not be concerned if it hits or not. I.E fillia i know in most respectable games if you're doing random supers you're going to take a full BnB.

    @Dime_x

    Thats actually good to know since i block it most of the time i thought it could still be cancelled.
     
  2. keninblack

    keninblack Lit Events Mod

    Location:
    Summit, NJ
    Parasoul
    Double
    Painwheel
    Air Gregor is unsafe now, just get her on the way down.

    Its kinda a difficultish punish depending on the character, but its not free like it was in SDE.
     
  3. Peterthegameguy

    Peterthegameguy A Real Gigan.

    Location:
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    Peter the game guy
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    Maybe replace the Beheaded invulnerability frames with armor frames.
     
  4. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Ok just played in the beta for 2 and a half hours. http://www.twitch.tv/khaosmuffins/b/504238064 (I show off the changes in training at the start and talk about j.HP a bit and then matches later.)

    I actually like the changes. Fortune has to take better care of the head and has to think more in the neutral game. Losing zoom > nom/sneeze on block isn't too bad, and it kinda helps since cooldown carries over when the head gets hit. As for the cooldown change, it isn't too bad. It was definitely noticeable playing against Peacock but it wasn't TERRIBLE (and cooldown was longer anyways from zoom > nom). Still dunno how I feel about projectiles against the head but again... it wasn't too bad... so far. Feral Edge change was good. The change on Nom's active period is just weird and not really all that necessary.

    I'm still hoping for j.HP and/or j.HK (at least when she has the head on) to be buffed. :(
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
    DARKNESSxEAGLE likes this.
  5. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    Yeah I think getting rid of the really dumb stuff and then handing out a couple of small buffs to the weaker members of the cast is the way to go with getting the top tiers in line, so I approve of these changes.

    If you start hammering the top characters with big nerfs it has a tendency to result in overnerfed garbage characters.
     
    Dime likes this.
  6. Pali

    Pali Active Member

    PSN:
    Heavyjugz
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    She still needs a nerf head makes everything safe pretty much, even a fucking super. Go in to punish get omnomnomed to a full combo, head is VERY annoying so tie that in with assist too and thats about as baby mode as you can get.
     
  7. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Head no longer makes any super safe...soooo yea.
    You should learn about the new version before making yourself look like a fool for a third time.
     
    Broken Loose and DDB like this.
  8. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

    Eliza
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    Did you read the most recent patch notes that everyone here was talking about?
     
  9. Pali

    Pali Active Member

    PSN:
    Heavyjugz
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    No, i just played a match and this happened. Head made it safe i got omnomed when i went in to punish a blocked super.

    @Camail

    Unless that was lag this just happened in game, also you're wrong i just went into training mode and tested it you can still make it safe if they aren't close enough to punish.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2014
  10. Mr. X

    Mr. X Groovy Gameplay Mod Lead

    Is Pali playing the Beta on Steam? Because that change to controlling the head after blocked Super is a Beta change.
     
  11. Pali

    Pali Active Member

    PSN:
    Heavyjugz
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    The head can still make the super safe i just tested it myself, so obviously that wasn't changed.
     
  12. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    Pretty sure Pali plays on console, doesn't have the Steam version, and is being Pali
     
  13. iLoli

    iLoli Speed Kills

    Location:
    South Carolina
    PSN:
    Austin_QED and for 3DS:4785-6293-9028
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Eliza
    To be fair, most ps3 players have no idea what's actually happening in the beta.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2014
  14. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    So far I am fine with these changes, it makes it harder to play headless and approaching with the head isn't as straight forward as zoom nom/sneeze because then it forces you to come in at the same time or risk >2 seconds of punishment on the head, not to mention the fact that you can have assist hit the head instead of your point character to make the damage even safer. I was playing stuff earlier and most of the times where the head was underneath me I could call in fiber upper assist and do completely safe damage that also threw the head back. I was admittedly a little loose with my assist calls but the general principle of having a safe head punish is much more viable and should make fortune's think about the approach much morecarefully.


    Also @Pali I don't feel like making an enemy today so I'll just tell you, we are talking about beta changes, they were posted in the last page and make any other talk of fortune balance irrelevant until these nerfs are tested. Though in the future if this happens again I hope you can call me something more interesting than "idiot" and "scrub".
     
  15. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Beta changes still don't seem to affect Fortune as much as people think they do. She lost some dumb stuff, and opponents now have better reason to punish the head. I don't miss zoom > nom on block at all (since it was just a bad habit), but I miss zoom > sneeze (and would like to get that back, hehe).
     
    DARKNESSxEAGLE likes this.
  16. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    I'm happy there's some punish time on fiber instead of a guessing game on whether she's going to super or not.

    I'd like to see her head-on stuff buffed somehow, but I don't know what you can do to enable that at this point without taking something away.
     
  17. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    This is still a thing
    Can we please stop this from being a thing
     
  18. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
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    I'm still hoping for j.HP and a potential j.HK buff. ;-;
     
  19. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    PSN:
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    Ms. Fortune
    Beowulf
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    "j.HP -2f startup; knockback adjusted to be more combo-friendly; damage 975->775; no longer combos into Cat Spike."

    Mike

    What are you doing

    Mike

    STOP
     
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  20. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Norcal
    Steam:
    remikz_
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    What even...

    Why would you reduce the damage AND not allow it to combo into head spike...
     
  21. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    I blame it on worldjem.
     
  22. ...come to think of it... I don't think I ever used j.HP >w<
     
  23. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    Didn't really get to test out j.HP since the only person who wanted to play in the beta was Dekillsage and he went Peacock so....
     
    ClarenceMage likes this.
  24. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Beowulf
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Should have told me to play another character!
    There was no j-j-j-
    Jolly Cooperation!
     
  25. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
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    Ms. Fortune
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    So on the head-roll after ground super change that introduced today... it's pretty useless.

    If you have OTG left then you're only +1 and your combo straight up ends there since head-roll doesn't cancel into anything. You may as well just do a head-on > headless transition combo that sends them into the corner and ends in rekka since you'll have more advantage AND the head will be in a better position for pressure AND you can set this up midscreen AND you don't have to save your OTG. Also, head-roll triggers undizzy so if you super at the end of a combo then... yeah.

    If you used up your OTG and cancel into head-roll then you're -13 with Fortune right on top of the head so that's an easy punish with both the head and the body potentially getting caught in a combo. So... don't do that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  26. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    I still miss jHP

    I'd rather have damage and hitstun than speed.
     
    RemiKz and CaioLugon like this.
  27. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    The damage is only ~500 less, and now you get a move that can basically make your opponent fast fall, which I think can be interesting. Also fortune can do more restands now which is nice. The only change I'm not a fan of is the last one. It's a weird super change that is maybe mike's way of giving us head on > headless. Then you have an +1 on hit low/throw mix up at best. I just think it limits her head on offense unnecessarily.
     
  28. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
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    Ms. Fortune
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    I guess this would be the place to discuss it instead of flooding the beta thread.
    So I know we all want the old j.HP hitstun to combo into headspike, so the question is do we want lower knockback with less damage like in the recent beta, or upwards knockback with more damage like in retail?

    Retail j.HP
    + More damage
    + Combos are less awkward
    + Easy to convert off of a raw hit
    +? We're more familiar with it
    - Upwards knockback can cause certain combos to drop in weird places on certain characters (EX: j.HP > ADC > j.HP on Squigly and Valentine)
    - No universal restand combos using j.HP, so you'll be using your OTG much more often if you actually want to do a good combo (and considering the nerf to her ground super....)

    Beta j.HP
    + Universal restand combos so you can save your OTG for when you want to super at the end of a combo and/or DHC for an extended combo with another character
    + More routes which mean more reset options, can still do some of the routes from retail j.HP but with different timing/normals
    + Easier/more damaging/more consistent side-switch combo for when you want to send the opponent a certain direction.
    - Some of the combos are more awkward to do
    - Less damage (Though she still hits about as hard as in retail; if not for the damage nerf she'd be getting 8k+ free)
    - A bit more difficult to convert off of a random hit
    - Not sure if Mike Z would lessen the hitstun or use the old hitstun if this were put in
    - Not sure how combo'ing into headspike would work due to the knockback

    I personally like the beta j.HP better, especially now that saving the OTG for Fortune is more important and because having more combo routes is really nice.
     
  29. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

    Location:
    Oh god help me
    Steam:
    DDB of the Stars
    PSN:
    DiddyBound
    Ms. Fortune
    Beowulf
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    But the beta jHP right now is Retail jHP with the beta jHP speed.

    Retail jHP with beta speed is best jHP. Who needs restands when you can have head-on > headless and still save OTG?
     
  30. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

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    A bit lost on this part. There's loss of ~500 compared to the head-on > headless combo I did but this is still a thing. (Thanks to @RemiKz)

    I'd rather have restands and more combo routes.
     
  31. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    I'm leavin' this up to you all, I don't particularly care.

    But I find it weird that the restand one is listed as "awkward combos", they're hella less awkward than what y'all are doing now.
     
  32. RemiKz

    RemiKz Well-Known Member

    Location:
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    How would you guys feel about having the experimental knockback, speed, damage, and stun but allowing j.mk to combo into headspike?

    That way we keep the benefits of the new j.hp without interfering with much of what it allowed you to do before.

    Also, why exactly was the stun reduced? I assume it might have lead to some silly stuff but I can't think of anything off the top of my head.
     
  33. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    The one thing I really care about is the hitstun. Even though I love my damaging combos(RIP 10ks), it can be fun to play around with new combo paths.
     
  34. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

    Location:
    Oh god help me
    Steam:
    DDB of the Stars
    PSN:
    DiddyBound
    Ms. Fortune
    Beowulf
    Filia
    Yeah, the hitstun is what matters.
     
  35. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

    Steam:
    RetroStation
    Unknown
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    "Beta" j.HP (the one with lower knockback/less hitstun/etc) was the reason I started playing Fortune, oddly enough. I tried her in SDE and MDE, and something about her just felt... off. "Beta" j.HP just feels more natural, and anything I've tried with it just feels "right".

    But that's just me :/
     
  36. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    I prefer having the hitstun because doing most of anything after the jHP with the reduced hitstun becomes strangely hard to do. A very small time frame to do even LK Axe Kick.
     
  37. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
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    labzero_mike
    PSN:
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    Cerebella
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    If the hitstun is reduced, assume it's for a reason.
    (^.^)
     
  38. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

    Steam:
    RetroStation
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    Unknown
    But I don't like using OTG so early. It feels like a waste. Even with reduced hitstun, you can still Fiber Loop.

    Like so:

     
  39. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Isn't this the same knockback as in SDE?
     
  40. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

    Location:
    Oh god help me
    Steam:
    DDB of the Stars
    PSN:
    DiddyBound
    Ms. Fortune
    Beowulf
    Filia
    This whole jHP thing has got us runnin' around like a cat with its head off.
     

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