I Think Fortune Needs Some Serious Changes

Discussion in 'Ms. Fortune' started by DARKNESSxEAGLE, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    Gregor, Buer Thresher, and BB's air super are all less than certain punishes, or otherwise have some kind of safety/gambit to them in a lot of circumstances. Of the four, Fortune's is probably the easiest/simplest for me to punish consistently, even if the punishment isn't optimal damage. Do you think Fortune/Feral-Edge specifically needs to be a little different in this respect?

    With Pdubs, I often use Double's st.HK or Fugazi to position the head in such a way that it's at the perfect range for MP Luger and/or PW's c.MP assist to hit it indefinitely until they either reposition it themselves, sneeze, get offensive, or try to call it back. PW's one of the few characters that can largely avoid it, throw out a disjointed air-button hitbox, and land/fly-cancel in time to block or dodge if they weren't paying attention initially but tried to react.

    I could see a lot of players/teams giving fortune a headache with this, even if projectiles are off the table because assists will still be available which function similarly in a lot of respects. The other part is that some characters/matchups could really benefit from a projectile that does this to the head, but requires good projectile use/management of their own, like Parasoul's LK Tear or MP Shot. As I understand it, Parasoul already has problems with Fortune so maybe it's not a bad idea in her case. What would you say if there were a way to make it so that Georges or other specific projectiles don't trigger a ton of cooldown?

    I agree that it'd definitely be cool to see players putting damage into the head as an alternative to stop-and-go approaches in the game now, as well as generally making Fortune be more responsible for her head, but I don't know that it could be done without just turning it into a remote liability that fucks up Fortune.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  2. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    ViewThePhenom
    Painwheel
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    Agreed on the cooldown on the head if it's attacked. If the player wants to leave the head next to me without covering it, he deserves to lose his health without a chance to throw a head attack out. It's a puppet, ffs.

    I would argue that Peacock projectiles should do this as well, since absorbing the Georges means the body doesn't have to deal with them. Having the head absorb all my Georges while the body runs in, then the head does a sneeze/nom attack is silly imo.
     
    ClarenceMage likes this.
  3. RetroStation

    RetroStation The Eternal Casual on Hiatus

    Steam:
    RetroStation
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Unknown
    I'm also calling for not being able to cancel in to Nom on slide whiff. If I jump to punish and the slide misses, there's no reason I should constantly get counterhit by Nom when I punish.
     
  4. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    She still takes 50% damage so if she didn't have the chance to move the head out of the way while dealing with a barrage or projectiles then... yeah that'd be a bit much. Item drop and airplane still do a good job of keeping Fortune in check.
     
  5. View619

    View619 Well-Known Member

    Steam:
    ViewThePhenom
    Painwheel
    Peacock
    Cerebella
    Yeah, it could get locked down while the body has to deal with SOID; airplane is one less George locking it down. I guess making Peacock's Georges an exception couldn't hurt. Plus she normally has an assist slapping it around anyway.
     
  6. Sydoh

    Sydoh Silent Dolphin Administrator

    Location:
    Canada (East)
    Steam:
    Sydoh
    PSN:
    worldjem7
    Ms. Fortune
    My thoughts on Khaos's post:

    Head Roll
    head roll is fine
    It's a 1-shot reversal option that you can just avoid by being above her in the same way you can avoid peacock's MP Bang.

    Feral Edge
    technically, feral edge has a crap-ton of recovery, it's just she's able to move the head during some of the later portion of the recovery.
    In any case, I don't think this is much of an issue. The head has to be close enough to keep her safe, and that's not guaranteed. Even when it's close, it's a tight timing to get the head to cover her.

    Longer cooldown on blocked nom
    Replace the new head change in beta with extra cooldown on any blocked head attacks.

    cooldown on the head when attacked
    No. There are plenty of ways to keep the head incapacitated or moved.

    more recovery on head furzerker
    No. It's fine.

    more recovery on fiber up
    I think fiber is fair enough at this point. You can't combo from max range HK or MK and the hitbox is smaller on the first hit.

    j.HP
    Make j.HP the way it was before in SDE terms of startup and usability. You used to be able to do j.LK > j.HP > j.LK > j.HP and have them low enough to the ground to do a 5-way mixup, but keep damage the same as it is now.

    j.HK (new idea)
    another idea would be to have fortune's j.HK hitbox start where the animation starts, which is like a 45 degree angle behind her. It would help head-on fortune because she has a lower IAD limit and you could do IAD j.HK Crossup.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
    DDB likes this.
  7. *reads* ...Am I weird for using Fortune nearly 100% of the time with head on? >w<
     
  8. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

    Location:
    Oh god help me
    Steam:
    DDB of the Stars
    PSN:
    DiddyBound
    Ms. Fortune
    Beowulf
    Filia
    Nah, you've got a good head on your shoulders. Just as a heads up though, sooner or later a Fortune's gotta shove that cat cranium off to new places. You'll be loggin' in some time with that noggin.
     
    KhaosMuffins likes this.
  9. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    2 months of hindsight and a good few more sets with Peck and Woofly and I've decided my initial post was a little excessive as I just listed every issue I have with Fortune.

    Looking at Khaos' post I think it's more worthwhile to go for a pick and mix approach than a "fix all of this" one. If I were to go with the minimal number of changes I'd stick with:
    • Longer nom cooldown (replace the current change for no cancelling on block)
    • Some proper hitstun on the head, yes there are ways to keep it in stun but it should be easier; Fortune gets the huge advantage of having what is essentially an extra assist on stage that can be confirmed off of easily so the risks should actually feel like risks.
    • -2 on blocked beheaded OR remove grab invul window
    I feel that this would be enough. Even if there's uncertainty then I still don't see any reason not to test them out in beta, it's there for a reason that's more than just new characters after all.

    EDIT:
    Also Psoul bikes passing through Fortune after hitting the head just looks stupid, if anything it should be hitting both.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
    KhaosMuffins and Woofly like this.
  10. Vladislav_Paizis

    Vladislav_Paizis On hiatus from SG

    Location:
    Tallinn, Estonia
    Steam:
    Vladislav_Paizis
    PSN:
    Vlad7779311
    Ms. Fortune
    Eliza
    Unknown
    You're not the only one. I prefer doing head-on combos and I find Headless Fortune's airdash uncomfortable to do.
     
  11. Kawalorn

    Kawalorn Aka Oni

    Location:
    Poland, Warsaw
    Steam:
    Kawalorn
    Valentine
    Ms. Fortune
    I myself play mostly a Head-on Fortune changing only if that approach doesn't seem to work. Sometimes it's nice to change modes in the middle of a fight to confuse your opponent with a radically different play-style both of them represent. :P
     
  12. Woofly

    Woofly Sekh em boys!

    Steam:
    Woofly
    PSN:
    Wooflyples
    Like others had said I would like beheaded to be less good on block or its brief period of throw invulnerability removed, I don't really get why functions the way it does or why Fortune needs it. Maybe @Mike_Z could chime in? *also anything on that Squigly colour? off topic <3*
     
  13. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

    Location:
    Oh god help me
    Steam:
    DDB of the Stars
    PSN:
    DiddyBound
    Ms. Fortune
    Beowulf
    Filia
    Yeah, she actually prefers having her head on against Painwheel. Painwheel isn't on the ground enough to care much about the head. There's a reason she's easily Fortune's worst matchup.
     
  14. iLoli

    iLoli Speed Kills

    Location:
    South Carolina
    PSN:
    Austin_QED and for 3DS:4785-6293-9028
    Parasoul
    Squigly
    Eliza
    Let's put it like this.

    No one's scared of no lil' Ed Eddie.

    No one's scared of Relius when he's missing his Waifu.

    Carl is meeehh without his sis.

    Shabrys without Bull is the worst character in P4a.

    Lie without Elf is no bueno.

    Am I missing someone?

    But head on Fortune is still a legit threat.

    Not that I'm saying she needs nerfs or that's OP or whatevs.

    I just wouldn't really call her a puppet character.

    I've just picked up Fortune, so maybe my tune will change in the upcoming months, but so far she seems to be: Head On=Solid, very sold. Head Off=Let's get silly.
     
    TrulyAmiracle, Woofly and DDB like this.
  15. Beuzer0

    Beuzer0 Bozo Zozo

    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    Steam:
    Beuzer0
    PSN:
    Beuzer0
    XBL:
    Beuzer0
    Ms. Fortune
    Squigly
    Big Band
    Fortune has some god-tier things but her normals are not stellar though.

    If one day Fortune gets nerfed then Filia and Double should be as well.
     
  16. Mr. X

    Mr. X Groovy Gameplay Mod Lead

    Weren't the last 2 Skullgirl iterations of Fortune "Keep the head on"?
     
  17. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    Are you from the future or something?
     
    Hilary, Woofly and DDB like this.
  18. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Headless has always been (and still is) better than head-on. It's just that so few players actually play her headless (and are good at it).
     
    DDB and Dime like this.
  19. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    It's hard to take posts seriously when...well, read the thread again.

    I think my biggest problem with zoom-nom is that it's not a blockstring, so if you block the zoom you can still get hit for trying to move.
    It's not even a blockstring if you cancel as early as possible, and she doesn't have to do that.
    So I'm likely going to make it so you can only cancel zoom into nom while whiffing or on the frame it touches like Headbutt (suck it) and then make that a blockstring.

    That, and carrying cooldown over the head being hit by the opponent is probably enough. Possibly a slightly longer period after Feral where you can't control the head, and POSSIBLY removing throw invin on head toss although I think that's a bit much, or making it like -2. But I don't have much of a problem with those.
     
  20. Mr. X

    Mr. X Groovy Gameplay Mod Lead

    Skullgirls
    Skullgirls SDE
    Skullgirls MDE/Squigly

    Skullgirls Encore

    I thought lurking through here there I saw a lot of keep the head on because mixups are better/stronger, only remove head after air super to continue combos.
     
  21. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

    Location:
    Trinidad && Tobago
    Ms. Fortune
    Filia
    Double
    These last two versions of SG DEFINITELY were not "keep the head on".

    I thought maybe you were coming from 2016 and were talking about SG:MovieNight and SG:NowWeHave2Fortunes as "last 2 iterations", I dunno much about those.
     
    Woofly and DDB like this.
  22. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    We were discussing ways to combo with her and discussing the changes in mde that differentiated head on from headless, and after we discovered the fiber upper glitch there was a lot to talk about with head on. As far as I know everyone in the fortune community still thinks that headless is stronger as an individual character, its just that head on now has valuable tools that can't be used while headless (unlike during vanilla and sde). I don't really know where you got the idea that we thought head on was the definitive best.
     
  23. Mr. X

    Mr. X Groovy Gameplay Mod Lead

    I'm not a very good lurker I s'pose.
     
  24. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Is that the one I fixed or something else?
     
  25. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Yea it was the one you fixed.
     
  26. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Steam:
    labzero_mike
    PSN:
    MikeZWasTaken
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Peacock
    I've been saying this for years! <3
     
  27. Age

    Age Well-Known Member

    I was messing around with zoning as headless fortune a while back. The main thing that I thought was bs was that I could cancel the long recovery time of the head by attacking it mysel. I could just do the old zoom-nom frametrap, call a lockdown assist, launch the head (which then protects the assist) and as soon as the launched head lands it's free to act again.
     
  28. Zidiane

    Zidiane Doing my best

    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Steam:
    Zidiane
    PSN:
    zidiane5
    XBL:
    Zidiane
    Cerebella
    If I have to scroll down to read a whole post, god damn, you wrote too much.

    I thought Fortune was fine. I don't really think she needs any significant nerfs. I'm okay with the stuff that just happened to her (with the zoom xx nom thing), but I think balance wise she isn't too dumb anymore. You could always make her worse, I mean, go ahead, I don't main her.
     
  29. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Removing cooldown reset on her own attacks would be awful. That remove an obscene amount of head use. I also fail to see the strength of that block string being great enough to be thought of as broken. It's not even the best way to use a lockdown assist as headless...
     
  30. Jason

    Jason Not JasonD

    Squigly
    Big Band
    Cerebella
    As long as the cooldown continues to tic-down during the time when the head is flying around in the air after being hit, I don't think the difference would be all that significant, except for Nom.
     
  31. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    They're all small nerfs, really. (With the hope that head-on will be made better to make it worth using)
     
  32. Random 2 cents on the topic.

    Not sure how the scaling is when Fortune's head is off but what if there was another risk with the head off like slightly more damage to it when it's hit? (it is just a head that can occasionally bit and ram you after all). Idk, aside from the cooldown suggestions already made, I really have no issue around her when I play. Yeah she can beast when done right but after a while you get used to it and catch her when she makes herself open (like most of the cast).
     
  33. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

    Location:
    Brazil
    Steam:
    CaioLugon
    PSN:
    O3366-2020O
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Head-on is already worth using, especially with a good lockdown assist (mostly copter).
     
  34. Pali

    Pali Active Member

    PSN:
    Heavyjugz
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Unknown
    Fortune needs nerfs, shes too fucking baby mode with the DP and all of her invincible start up moves. Shes like the ideal scrub character that you can get some wins with if you mash good enough. Example: oh he missed his combo (opponent mashes lvl 3) yes! it worked!! 60% of life gone... oh ima mash dp and get a full BNB, lemme just head roll cause its too good :3 tee hee

    Fillia is baby mode too
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2014
  35. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua

    Her dp isn't free anymore, if you block it on the ground she's going for a ride. Lots of stuff has changed since you last regularly posted on srk.
     
    Pali likes this.
  36. Luweewu

    Luweewu Resident Meanie Gameplay Mod

    http://steamcommunity.com/games/208610/announcements/detail/1659878031201525581

     
    DARKNESSxEAGLE likes this.
  37. Camail

    Camail Well-Known Member

    Anyone who comments on the nerfs before getting in a least one long set against a headless fortune player in beta will lose any amount of respect I had for them. Let's start this out without theory fighter and actually play the game before talking out of our asses.
     
  38. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    Sweet, @Woofly if you're free later we need to have a set in beta!
     
  39. Woofly

    Woofly Sekh em boys!

    Steam:
    Woofly
    PSN:
    Wooflyples
    No......kidding sure.
     
  40. DARKNESSxEAGLE

    DARKNESSxEAGLE Master of Disguise

    Location:
    Europe (UK)
    Steam:
    DixiE
    PSN:
    DARKNESSxEAGLE
    Filia
    Cerebella
    Ms. Fortune
    Ok after a good few matches against non-Peck/Woofly players (although Izzmo, who I played most with, is about on my level/better than me) I really like these changes. The reduced nom frames has to be my favourite, it felt like I actually had to do stuff with the head and not just call slide into nom at every opportunity.

    Izzmo also capitalized on that change to the cooldown when the head is hit and that felt like I was actually getting punished for having the head on the field, which is what I want from Fortune so that change made me quite happy.

    I strongly suggest that people find their nearest headless Fortune and have a long set with them (and all you headless Fortunes out there have a long set with non-Fortune peasants) just to see how it feels with these experiments.
     

Share This Page

Facebook:

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)