I don't understand Push Block Guard Cancel

Discussion in 'Beginner Forum' started by MysteriousJ, Jun 12, 2014.

  1. MysteriousJ

    MysteriousJ No.1 Skullgirls player in Idaho

    Location:
    NW OR / Boise ID
    Double
    Filia
    Eliza
    Understanding how PBGC works would probably improve my game more than anything else right now. Half the time it somehow works, the other half I get hit experimenting. :)
    What is the window for the input to counter when the push block ends?
    Does using a charge move like Big Band's brass knuckles make this timing harder? I've read that you can't PBGC if you're holding block, but I don't know why or how that works.
    Can you reversal even if you're getting attacked at the end of the push block (like a multi-hit move)?
    I guess these questions boil down to: can you PBGC into fenrir drive during cat heads? I tried this in training mode for a while and couldn't get it.
     
  2. dekillsage

    dekillsage Gloomy EVO Champ 2014

    Beowulf
    Cerebella
    Big Band
    Yes . If you Wana know the timing just pb and hold up. When you jump or get hit is the timing you want probably idunno
     
  3. mcpeanuts

    mcpeanuts Anchor Peacock is the future

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Steam:
    may_contain_peanuts
    Double
    Big Band
    Peacock
    Someone else can probably explain this better and more accurately but I will do my best~

    It's easier to understand how PBGC works when you understand how PB works. Which maybe you already do but I'll explain it real quick. When you pushblock someone they're pushed back (obv) and whatever blockstun you were in is replaced with a fixed amount of blockstun (I think 25 frames). So if you would have been in 5 more frames of blockstun before, now you're in 25 frames of blockstun. If you would have been in 100 more frames of blockstun, now you're in 25 frames of blockstun.

    As soon as the 25 frames of blockstun end, as long as you are not holding back, you leave blockstun completely and can control your character again. (The reason this works this way, to answer your question, is because if you keep holding back that's the motion to block, so you'll, like, block). Because you're no longer in blockstun, if the opponent has an active hitbox overlapping your hurtbox, you will immediately get hit unless you do something with armor/invincibility on the first frame that you leave blockstun. This is why it's hard to PBGC something like cat heads. However something like Bella's Diamond Dynamo is very easy to PBGC, because even though the whole thing is a true blockstring, there are large gaps where the move has no active frames, and plus she gets pushed back to where the move is whiffing so like that makes it easier too.

    There are visual cues for when the pushblock animation ends but in situations where you only have 1 frame to input your Fenrir or whatever you're not gonna be able to rely on that. You just gotta get used to the timing, and it's hard because it's 1 frame.

    Hopefully that was helpful!
     
    Mella, AWP112, Hilary and 2 others like this.
  4. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    In a nutshell its pushblock and then hold forward. The pushblock gets canceled by holding or inputting any NON BLOCKING direction. The buffer for this is 4 frames. And the amount of time that elapses before you can cancel your pushblock VARIES by the move(s) that you pushblock.

    Because of this, it is easier to pbgc into moves that end in a forward motion such as qcf moves like mp bang or any invincible qcf super, this is simply because you can just do the qcf motion over and over again while pressing the appropriate buttons. It is much harder to pbgc into moves that do not end in a forward motion. Such as qcb moves since these CANNOT be mashed via qcb over and over (though you CAN mash half circle back over and over because hub has a forward motion)... But its still harder since you only have the 4 frame buffer window to hit and because its a half circle.



    Easiest way to practice this is to corner yourself and record bella doing st.hp xx cerecopter. Use bella on point to pbgc into dynamo (easy) and then devilhorns (harder) and then lvl 3 (hardest imho)


    Have fun. Also you can pbgc into ANY INPUT so you can easily pbgc into things like hold upforward in order to pushblock a characters confirm and go into offense against them as long as you pushblocked at the right time.
     
  5. Hilary

    Hilary Well-Known Member

    McPeanuts nailed it, but there is one thing people forget about: The guard stun reduction once the 25f pushblock thing has gone through.

    The beauty of it is that once you're comfortable with the timing and/or pushblock animation of your character, you can start spending more time during your pushblocks looking to confirm if they're in a position where they'll get hit by the PBGC'd move. You really don't have to do it with a blind commitment like a lot of people believe.



    Cat heads are really susceptible to PBGC supers, because double player has to constantly be pushing buttons to keep the cats moving. It's one of the reasons I generally use lugers, airthrow spam, and aerial approaches for my Double's catheads rather than jabs, slides, bombers, or ground throws like a lot of others do.
     
  6. erkicman

    erkicman I'm the MASTER of non-arguments

    Steam:
    erkicman87
    Parasoul
    Robo Fortune
    Beowulf
    So basically, don't try PBGC'ing a string if the timing ends up being a frame-perfect counter? Maybe that's why I keep getting hit
     
  7. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua
    No. As i said, pushblock timing VARIES. Hitstop makes it vary so there is no 25 frame timing that is constant against varying multihit moves. I use pbgc all day long, the timing is always variable if you are pbgcing varying moves, though it is constant if you pbgc the same move (provided you input your pushblock at the same time, everytime) pbgc against catheads varies if the opponent knows how to control his catheads well or just has really random catheads mash timing.
     
  8. alexpi

    alexpi Your waifu sucks

    Yeah, I'm with dime. Cat heads is a pain to PBGC anything besides jump unless they're a really lazy double. The staggered cat head hits and the fact that double doesn't have to be near you makes it really hard to punish. You either need something like BFF (which is rough as a PBGC for a different reason) or they need to be lazily pushing buttons next to you.
     
  9. Evilweevle

    Evilweevle Of course i meant to do that!

    PSN:
    Mrfossy
    XBL:
    Mrfossy
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Squigly
    i was practicing my PBGC the other day with filia j.HP-HK, cr.MKxx hairball.

    i dont think i hit it even frigging once. the whole variable timing thing is extremely difficult to pull off against strings since the timing can vary a lot.

    i gave up after like 100 attempts.
     
  10. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

    Painwheel
    Big Band
    Fukua

    One of my playing partners uses fortune and filia with cerecopter. Once his fortune goes out and filia comes in my friend will of course be forced to go low with filia sometimes, and when i guess right and block her low, my friend will ALWAYS call cerecopter assist to cover for blocked cr.mk. I think i have around a 95% success ratio pbgcing that string into painwheels deathcrawl then dhcing into doubles catheads and doing crazy damage, plus happy birthday. The kicker is that i do this on reaction online. I dont do it if no cerecopter comes out.


    Moral of the story is to pushblock filias cr.mk early so there is no pushback and then pbgc into an invincible super. Its maaaaaad easy.
     
  11. Cadenza

    Cadenza Documentation Expert

    Steam:
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/moon_cadenza
    Parasoul
    Filia
    Double
    usually PBGC is easy if you do the pbgc into a move early so that it ends and when they to call assist or w.e you can do PBGC and punish easy
     
  12. Evilweevle

    Evilweevle Of course i meant to do that!

    PSN:
    Mrfossy
    XBL:
    Mrfossy
    Ms. Fortune
    Cerebella
    Squigly
    hmmm strange i just practiced it angain now and it was waaaay easier to do it than i found last night. perhaps i was fucking up the timing. (with bella devil horns)

    aaaaand now ive just gone back to squigly to practice charged dragon punch PBGC and im back to 0% success rate again. even PBGC into daisy pusher is easier to do. WTH?

    someone else test for me and see how easily they can pull it off.
     
  13. KhaosMuffins

    KhaosMuffins Wannabe Gatekeeper

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Steam:
    KhaosMuffins
    PSN:
    KhaosMuffins
    Ms. Fortune
    Unknown
    Unknown
    I have inputs on in this video so this may or may not help someone with the inputs?
     
  14. D.R.E.

    D.R.E. nintendo sprts gm swag

    Location:
    Memphis, Tn
    Steam:
    arrahdre
    PSN:
    D_Arrah
    XBL:
    Arrahdre
    Parasoul
    Double
    can someone tell me whats going on when you PB certain moves and they dont "push away" and some others do? is it because of when I'm PB'ing? simple question, but I need to start at the ground level of trying to figure out this ish...
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  15. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    I could be way wrong (and my understanding is almost certainly incomplete), and if so I'll bow out gracelessly leaving this post up so the world can see my shame.

    But on topic, it has to do with multihit moves. You have to push block the last hit of a multihit move. This is why some multihit moves can pressure so well.

    Example: PW jumps in with j.mp (4 hits), you wait patiently until the 4th hits and pushblock. Away she goes.

    Example: PW jumps in with j.mp, fly cancels after 3 hits, you pushblock on the 4th hit. Since the 4th hit never comes, you back dash and get punished.

    Example: PW jumps in with j.mp, you think she is going to fly cancel after the first hit, so you pushblock. She doesn't cancel so she doesn't get pushed away. You continue blocking, but she remains in your face able to pressure.
     
  16. D.R.E.

    D.R.E. nintendo sprts gm swag

    Location:
    Memphis, Tn
    Steam:
    arrahdre
    PSN:
    D_Arrah
    XBL:
    Arrahdre
    Parasoul
    Double
    ok..that makes sense..kinda...so what about multihit moves w/ a multi hit assist. like lets say Filia cr. mk + Cerecopter lockdown..what would I need to PB to be safe?
     
  17. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

    Location:
    Wyoming
    Steam:
    qspec
    Painwheel
    Squigly
    You'd pushblock the last move of the one you want pushed away. You're still going to be locked down (that's the strength of a lock down assist).

    Remember absolute guard as well as this can help with some of the high/low or cross-up resets.
     

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