Project Annie...In Motion!

Discussion in 'Art and Other Media' started by Skullmageddon, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    Doing my own version of Pillar gave me an idea.

    How would everyone feel about doing a simple critiquing session? We pick a move or action, anyone who wants to participate can produce their own animation of it, then we all share our work and talk about what works and what doesn't work. It could be a good way to start a discussion about the quality and style of this type of animation, and a nice side project for anyone who is looking for some feedback on their work. Plus, it could be fun.
     
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  2. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    fun is the best

    edit: also I like how she lowers herself before the DP becomes active, looks really dynamic
     
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  3. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    What I like about Ahad's original sketch of Pillar is the implied shear force of Annie's motion as she slices the cosmos into existence. Her outstretched legs and booster boots imply a great amount of leaping force, which carries through into the power behind her arched, upward swing. This means that all of the power of this move comes from how she leaps into the air and follows through with that action. Thus, I chose to emphasize the part before the move comes out rather than the main portion of the move itself. Pulling the body really low and far back helps to create a lot of build-up and tension, giving the leap that much more of an impact.

    That was less of a comment directed towards you and more of me just explaining why I chose to animate the way I did in case anyone is interested :P
     
  4. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    I SMELT PROGRESS

    THIS IS GOOD

    VERY GOOD
     
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  5. ArgonBern

    ArgonBern Dhar is love, Dhar is life.

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    Don't know if you already decided how to animate the 3d model (yes I know it's just for help with the real non-3d animations) but have you guys considered SFM? I heard it's not hard to learn and free on steam.

    For everything else hey 40 pages are many yo
     
  6. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    Stop smelling me like that, it's creepy.
     
  7. Tank

    Tank I argue till I'm wrong or right

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    @Skullmageddon I like the way she got the sword to the right position with that low crouching anticipation. And the speed she gets is awesome.
    The way i tried to animate it was based mostly off of sol bad guys.
    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]


    Most recent thing i was going before i saw your version.
    Show Spoiler

    [​IMG]

    Any other big attacks I 'll keep in mind her wide stance means she can take a big step into her attack.

    so um yeah do you mind if I Clean what you did :P.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
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  8. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    I was wondering if there was a little bit o' Sol in there :P

    Sure, you can clean up my frames if you'd like. Alternatively, you can also keep pushing your own version forward if you so choose. There are strengths to the direction you've chosen as well.

    But before any cleanup can happen, some decisions need to be made and some key frames need to be drawn in. My version isn't finished. She falls facing away from the camera and doesn't land in a way that easily puts her back at neutral, so one of two things needs to happen.

    1. She goes into her free-fall animation at the top of her jump, meaning that she's front facing and lands directly back into her neutral stance.

    2. She lands as I currently have her land (or something similar), then goes through a series of motions to revert back to her neutral stance.
     
  9. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    I think this is closer to the other character's animations. Updo is a good example, with it's own landing/reverting-back-to-neutral animation.

    My personal suggestion is a a really cliche, theatrical three point landing :P
     
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  10. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    That's not a bad suggestion. I could then have her take a large sweeping step while swinging her open hand to re-grab the sword with the appropriate hand.
     
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  11. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    Even how she lands right now is kind of perfect. With the sword in that upright position, she would be able to let go with her left hand, swiftly spin around to her left, grabbing the sword with her right hand and assume her neutral stance quickly. Weapon position awareness is a hallmark of a skilled fighter, so sightless hand switching would be pretty basic for her.
     
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  12. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the original plan was to do something along those lines. An alternative I thought of was to do something along the lines of your suggestion, where she simply lands with the sword already in the correct hand. I dunno, I'll figure it out when i get back to it.
     
  13. Cas Chronon

    Cas Chronon Hell yea, Cash Money!!

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    Alright so for this iteration I'm trying to make Annie go from a 2D perspective to the isometric perspective like in the concept for the attack. I decided to have the idea of her crumpling her legs to her back end and then swipe those legs forward when she slashes leaving them spread for the impact of the attack......it looks really ugly so far though. I think I have the movement blocked out but the timing is probably incorrect. Thank you for the advice @Skullmageddon. I tried to replicate this motion in real life as best as I could and then recreate it based on that.

    j.MP/Crescent Cut (Don't laugh at me too hard (open)
    Crescent-Cut-j4.gif
    I know. I know what you're thinking......
    tumblr_mn6q5mzXym1rsugmvo2_250.gif

     
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  14. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    It's late and I'm chillin' atm, but I'll try to reply with a proper critique sometime tomorrow.
     
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  15. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    Ok, time for some feedback. I don't have the time to illustrate anything for you atm, so I'll do my best to explain everything in words.

    What you're saying about going from a 2D perspective to an isometric one doesn't really make sense, which leads me to believe you're simply misusing the words. An isometric projection is a method of illustrating an object in a manner that forces all points to have equal foreshortening and fixed angles between one another. In other words, a technical illustration technique that lacks any real perspective. What I believe you are referring to is the fact that Annie is facing at a 3/4 camera view. It's a common angle for characters in comics and cartoons, as well as fighting games. We don't need to go into why characters are illustrated at this angle, I just thought it was something worth pointing out. We can talk about that more if you'd like.

    Now as far as the animation goes, you've actually got the right idea. What's off about it is simply the execution. Try this for me...break the entire animation down into only two frames. There are exactly two poses that are key to her motion, so breaking it down to those two key poses should really help define the action:

    1. The first key pose is the start of her swing. You've got the right idea with your first frame, but you can push it further. Having her legs both bent back is perfect, and you've also got her back arching backwards which is good. Push it further, make her bend back just a bit more. Same for the sword. Have her pulling the sword so far back that it's behind her. The power behind this motion comes from how she swings both her upper and lower body forward, so in order to swing the forward with great force she first needs to pull them back!

    2. Have her end on a frame that more closely resembles the original concept, the one that you have layered in the background for reference. In fact, just go ahead and trace it for now. There's no reason not too, it's already in an appropriate pose, and doing so makes your job faster. If it doesn't quite seem to work, you can change it later.

    * Here's a very important note. Once you have the two frames down, pay close attention to their juxtaposition. The first frame is the buildup to her swing, so after she swings her whole body should be moving back. In your current animation, you have her body moving forward as she swings. The impact of the action comes not from the downward swing of the sword, but from the reactions caused by her swing. This also doesn't mean simply moving her from right to left. Since there's some perspective, her body would likely move up and back at an angle. This angle is not defined by depth so much as it's defined by her body positioning.
     
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  16. Cas Chronon

    Cas Chronon Hell yea, Cash Money!!

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    Yea I apologize I didn't know what I was talking about there. Thank you for clarifying that. And thank you for the rest of your feedback as well, Skullmageddon.

    Okay so I made sure to follow what you said and experiment with what I had already as well. I made it look like the pulling back swing almost looks like a pelvic thrust forward and downward to become a thrust downward going upward and backward. I also used the traced concept as the last frame. I may want to work backward from that when I do the final line art. As for the full animation I think it may make more sense to look at.

    My first frame with the end frame
    Show Spoiler
    Crescent-Cut-mine.gif


    My first frame with Alex's concept
    Show Spoiler
    Crescent-Cut-alex-concept.gif


    The whole animation with Alex's concept
    Show Spoiler
    full-thing.gif


    I was also wondering about that. I think the action before and the action afterward makes sense but as I try to execute the same movement in real life, I tend to pull back a tiny bit after the supposed swipe to maintain balance. I haven't incorporated it yet but would that make sense to animate that as well? (I wish I had a better understanding of this kind of motion)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
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  17. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    No need to apologize, and no problem dude. Just let me know if I'm ever talking too much or providing feedback when you really don't want any. I don't mind critiquing, but I'd also hate to come across as patronizing.

    Nice! Ok, this is looking much better. Of the three animations you posted, the second one is the most successful. The poses and their positioning convey just enough information for me to understand what's happening. It's better than the first version and here's why;

    Quite frankly, the traced illustration of Alex's concept is simply better than your original frame. I usually don't like to skirt around the bush, so I'll just go ahead and tell you that your character illustrations aren't very good. Obviously I don't mean that in a harsh or mean way, but it's something that's pretty damn important when it comes to character animation. The reason I haven't brought it up until now is because there's not much I can do about it. From what I understand you don't have a whole lot of experience with 2D animation or illustration, and getting better at illustrating is just something that happens as you continue to illustrate over a long period of time. I can critique the quality of your illustrations and provide some pointers and feedback if you'd like, but for now it's just easier to provide feedback on your work as an animation. So yeah, version 2 is better that version 1 because Alex is better at drawing than you are :P But no seriously, if you'd like to talk about illustrating separately from animating then let me know and I'll see if I can provide helpful feedback.

    Ok, so here's why version 2 is better than version 3;

    The third version emphasizes the wrong parts of the action. The actual swing should be really fast and could be summed up with, at most, a single frame inbetween. There are a number of ways you could go about doing it, but at the moment the third version makes the swing feel really slow because there are so many frames between the two key frames. Instead, emphasize the frames leading into the back swing, then emphasize the follow-through that happens after the swing. If you'd like, I could animate my own version of the move to explain the motions I'm talking about. I probably wouldn't get around to doing so until tomorrow night or the next, but it's often much easier to explain by simply showing rather than telling.

    Acting out a motion is a really good way to go about animating something. The problem in this case is that you have to keep in mind that this is an extremely unrealistic action that obviously can't be fully acted out. Aside from realistic notions of movement and physics, you also have to consider details about the character that you want to convey. Also, the animation simply has to look good. Animating something that looks right doesn't always mean that you animate in a way that is actually right. If you're unsure as to whether or not having her pull back at all during the follow-through would look good, then I would suggest you try animating it that way and see how you feel about it. I often find that attempting to animate something in a particular way is the best way to decide if it's appropriate or not.
     
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  18. Cas Chronon

    Cas Chronon Hell yea, Cash Money!!

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    Oh yes definitely. That was why I was so hesitant on doing Annie's motions in the first place. But now that I'm aware that it's an extremely glaring issue, I can hopefully fix it to some degree with your feedback. Feel free to be as blunt as possible. The pain and embarrassment will subside with the positive reinforcement of progress.

    I think I understood what you were saying before. Keep the action quick and the result and leading into frames the main attraction. I'll probably have to take out a few frames. Maybe three frames will do instead of 7. Besides, you have done a lot of work on this expedition already. I wouldn't want you to bend over backwards for this more than you have already for my sake.

    Right I forgot about this. Realism is not always the key to a good motion. It just has to make sense in some way.

    Right I should have experimented with that on my own instead of asking. I think I should probably put my focus to illustrating right now before I do that.


    This is great. All week I've been showing my progress to people to get an opinion but I didn't get any honest feedback. Now with real soviet criticism I will be able to make real soviet progress which will lead to real soviet damage. Thanks Skullmageddon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  19. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    @Cas Chronon I'm pretty busy over the weekend, but I'll try to put together some details regarding character illustration and animation as it pertains to this project. It should be helpful for others here as well.

    And I could totally tell you whether or not I think adding a little bit of pullback during the follow-through would be a good idea, but I think you'll benefit more from just finding out on your own :P

    Don't worry about the feedback, I'll be sure to be as blunt as possible :) I don't like to half ass my criticism. Being dishonest during a critique doesn't help anyone.
     
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  20. Tank

    Tank I argue till I'm wrong or right

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    Here are some ideas for more moves. I set it up to be in the same "specials" group but they could be put into other parts of her moveset or used separately for something else.

    Event Horizon :QCF::K:

    Annie jumps and spins though the air quickly as she disapears. think cammy axle spin knuckle from SF. The button used determines what happens next.

    :LK: - Red shift - Vanishing spin works like parasoul's :LK:egret(edit:more like flesh step) , projectile invincible? is that a thing?
    :MK:- Orbital hell - Overhead kick, evades lows.
    :HK:- Black Hold - works like painwheels command grabs. :HK: version is intangible during the spin.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
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  21. Kai

    Kai Go Home And Be A Family Man! Beowulf

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    Cool idea, but I don't really think Annie's the disappearing type. She's got too much MAD SKILLZ to need that kind of trickery. Or, rather, if she did, it'd be a byproduct of her awesomeness (dashing so fast she leaves LIGHT ITSELF BEHIND!), and not an intentional flourish meant to deceive, as above. Just my thoughts.
     
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  22. ArgonBern

    ArgonBern Dhar is love, Dhar is life.

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    Black hold and Orbital hell look interesting but I agree with Night Phyre that the vanishing thing could work on someone like Beatrix, not Annie.

    Black hold could be a move in itself while Orbital hell (along also being another move or something like forward/backward + HK) could also be a followup to Pillar.

    Or something
     
  23. Tank

    Tank I argue till I'm wrong or right

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    orbital hell started out as just a F.s.HK but then the name inspired other things and stuff became specials.
    Now that i think about it red shift is more like flesh step than the egret.

    I get that she has the attitude and "charm" of sol bad guy but she is still a little magic girl. Evasion and trickery are what keep warriors alive for along time even if its not as cool. At least that's part of the reason i think she's been around to fight so many skull girls.
     
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  24. North888

    North888 Doesn't know what he's talking about

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    I was under the impression that Annie had plenty of other mobility and evasion methods. She seems the type to not necessarily have tickery, but just generally be mobile and evasive. I can see her with an evasive feint move that sends her into the air or dashes around the opponent instead of doing what the special would normally do...
     
  25. oashkoash

    oashkoash Amateur Artist and Squiggle Fan

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    I like the idea of Annie literally being so fast with certain movements, since she has already faced multiple skullgirls in the past and has had all this time to build up her abilities. Consider this, since she uses her blade so much one of her blockbusters should put a focus on it, ala Cloud's Omnislash or Kirby's Final Smash, complete with flashy star-bound visuals. Another thing to remember is that Annie also has Sagan and her galactic motifs, for even grander effect.
     
  26. Tank

    Tank I argue till I'm wrong or right

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    Just so i'm clear people do get the idea behinde the names of the moves right?

    red shift - is what happens at the event horizon of a black hole. Objects reach a certain point near a black hole you don't see them get closer to the black hole they just look like they disappear.

    Orbital hell - play on orbital heel (an infamous move from Tekken's bryan) and the fact that orbiting a black hole is hell on the orbiter.

    Black hold - play on black hole. grabs you and doesn't let go.

    Show Spoiler
    I thought it was pretty clever if i do say so myself.
     
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  27. ArgonBern

    ArgonBern Dhar is love, Dhar is life.

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    Red shift could be used as a fast move then.

    LK could be used for movements purposes, like Peacock's hole or Beowulf's dash, while the other versions could be slower in speed and retain their mechanics. I'm a bit perplexed on the mechanic of Black hold though; an idea would be a low damage hit move that locks opponents in place for a time and slow their projectiles for the duration (to hinder such moves probably, but I'm not sure about this), even though they'd still be able to attack.

    Also I'd suggest considering MK being black hold and HK Orbital for possible practical purposes.
     
  28. Skittylover228

    Skittylover228 need more ice cream...

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    Sagain has swirly eyes by the way
    Show Spoiler
    Screenshot_2015-04-07-14-52-45.png [spoiler/]
     
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  29. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    Ugh, I've been meaning to respond to everyone's work and thoughts, but I've been really busy all week. I'm going to try to jump back into this conversation sometime this weekend when I have more time.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Sagan doesn't have swirly eyes. Even if he did, the picture you referenced doesn't even show a swirl in his eye, it looks more like a circle. It's hard to tell since we don't have a lot of artwork pertaining to the matter, but the general consensus seems to be that his eyes are buttons (since he's a doll). The black lines in his eyes are often drawn as an X, to convey the yarn that's threaded between the button holes.
     
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  30. pcamble91

    pcamble91 The new guy

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    the sakura shuffle lol
     
  31. Cas Chronon

    Cas Chronon Hell yea, Cash Money!!

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    I updated the rough motion for j.MP/Crescent Cut, ditched the 2D to 3/4 angle and just made it 3/4 angle the whole way through. I've stuck to 3 frames but I might make it 4. Short, sweet and to the point. Buildup is emphasized...I think. I experimented with pulling back the sword and from a "game" standpoint, I found that it would probably confuse players on what was actually happening with the motion. Now....I suck at art so I'll probably work on a rough motion for other normals before I tackle doing final anniemations for them.


    Slow Rough

    Show Spoiler
    D-Don't laugh. It's still just a rough animation. I'm still a noob. slow-rough.gif


    First and End Frame

    Show Spoiler
    2extremes.gif
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
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  32. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    I see that little tuft of hair.
     
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  33. Tank

    Tank I argue till I'm wrong or right

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    uh oh annie-mators we done canonically goofed. sword on right side. pouch on right side. cuteness level not fully atained in current animations. We have work to do.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  34. Denizen

    Denizen Retired Member

    That handle is so fucked up lol
     
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  35. FakeangeL

    FakeangeL When's the real main character?

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  36. Cas Chronon

    Cas Chronon Hell yea, Cash Money!!

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    Maybe we'll see other intricacies about her official design when Beowulf is out. In the mean time....

    (Rough) s.MP (open)
    standing-MP-3.gif Rokay-I'm.gif
     
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  37. DDB

    DDB Annie Train into Callie Station!

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    The only way to perform such a slash is to break your leg in the windup
     
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  38. Tank

    Tank I argue till I'm wrong or right

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  39. Cas Chronon

    Cas Chronon Hell yea, Cash Money!!

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    Yes. I'm using two, actually. I tend to draw these on my free time but when I'm home I'm using a really small Huion tablet. At school I'm using a Wacom Bamboo tablet that has a much better resolution than the one I have at home.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2015
  40. ArgonBern

    ArgonBern Dhar is love, Dhar is life.

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    Her left leg looks kind of funny but I think the rest of the animation is well done
     
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