Rising Thunder [PC]

Discussion in 'Other Fighting Games' started by Spencer, Jul 20, 2015.

  1. Vagplus

    Vagplus Buy a Ps Vita!

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    Well it is using GGPO and it's being made by the people that made GGPO
     
  2. Ninja

    Ninja [Jazzy Diamonds]

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    even more junk. someone somewere is going to thank me for making this... one day...



    nah... this game is already making me snooze. Kinda feeling like I've hit the cap on Talos' reset game.
     
  3. Covenant

    Covenant HE WHO IS CAT (Dravidian)

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    ....it's in alpha. I'm 95% sure plenty of thing will change between now and release. Whether or no those changes are to your taste is a different story, though.
     
  4. Skullmageddon

    Skullmageddon Well-Known Member

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    You bring up a lot of good points, and I agree with your overall sentimentality. I was going to attempt to develop a counter argument just for the sake of having a discussion, but the problem is I'm not really speaking for myself. I obviously don't know why the developers chose to do anything they did, I just have my own thoughts on the matter. And let's be honest, no one wants to know my opinion :P

    That's very true, and I hadn't really considered that when making my argument. I also agree that special move inputs are easier to learn when compared to difficult links. Still, my thought was that they simply wanted to break down the difficulty that new players go through when they just enter into a fighting game. Get them past the "I can't qcf" part of learning, but keep the general complexity and difficulty of other aspects of the game in tact. Allow them to put a little bit more time into learning the other aspects of the game, without getting hung up on basic inputs. I don't exactly agree with the direction they've chosen if retaining new players is really their goal, I'm just simply attempting to make an argument for why they may have made some of the choices that they made.

    It's worth mentioning that I don't feel like I'm hung up on difficult links when I play this game. They're definitely there, but I don't really do them and I can get decent enough damage out of the various combos that I do. I can't do combos in USF4 to save my life, but I can definitely put together a handful of combos in Rising Thunder without too much thought or effort.
     
  5. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

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    I wish i could give this guy (the guy talking), a steam copy of skullgirls, and make him face a good peacock player.
     
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  6. gllt

    gllt Dedicated

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    Vatista charge bug says hi.
     
  7. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

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    what?
     
  8. Vagplus

    Vagplus Buy a Ps Vita!

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    Question: Is it hard to punish moves that you blocked?
    Cause i been seeing videos and people don't do anything after they block for example Chel's β attack (Shoryuken)

    Edit: I never played Street fighter 4
     
  9. Ninja

    Ninja [Jazzy Diamonds]

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    best bet to punish: jab.

    second best bet to punish: shoryuken

    third best bet to punish: don't and just do a invincible backdash when your opponent tries to close in space with an unsafe move without kinetic canceling it.
     
  10. Vagplus

    Vagplus Buy a Ps Vita!

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    So backdashes have inv. frames?
    I don't know how to feel about that.

    Then again unsafe moves can be canceled
     
  11. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    Compared to making all of your attacks safe on block, recharging your specials almost instantly, and the reset and combo opportunities that kinetic advance gives you, I still don't think it's stronger.
     
  12. Ninja

    Ninja [Jazzy Diamonds]

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    yup. everyone have invul frames (that yellow flash when they do the animation is when the invul frames are active.) on their back dash but they don't go too far back. which actually makes it good to use to advoid attacks and then punish them with a stronger move.
     
  13. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    That's absolutely at the core of the philosophy, difficult links serve no purpose to gameplay and are arguably a bigger wall then motions. That being said I wouldn't call the kinetic combos difficult, and many of the fancier ones are really very useless because of combo scaling.

    No actually it's not needlessly complicated, it's attaching a cost to doing that combo. It makes so you have to manage your resources. There are other easier combos routes for doing consistent meterless damage. Honestly even the fadc combos are EXTREMELY easy in this game, and every character uses it in some way. Damage scaling is huge so you'll probably be better off cancelling your medium attack into a special not into a hard.

    That's because rising thunder doesn't use the same combo system as sf4, which is imo the best thing about it. There really are no difficult links.

    Jump cancelling is also very strong if you want to continue pressure, depending on if they have a dp charged or not (if they even have one, Talos has to hold that crossup)

    I'll level with you I don't think this is going to be my favorite game of all time nor is it going to be the best competitive game, but I think this is going to be one of the most useful tools there is for getting new players into the meat and potato's of fighting games. I can't stress how excited I am to show this to people when it goes public and gets a local mode, people need to see the depth that fighters have, it's really difficult to tell people "well you should play this game with me but first you have to go home and learn special inputs and multiple conversions into bnbs and then we can finally play."

    I really hope they make both players meters visable, I don't think it adds anything to have them hidden. People should know when to go in and when not to, and I think it would help lower the barrier farther. Invisible stun gauge is worthless.

    It feels like there's a lot of worthless normals, again, like sf4, so I'd like to see those designed more intentionally.

    I hope that everyone takes 30 minutes to learn this game, it's the perfect lingua franca for the fgc.
     
  14. ScarletGungnir

    ScarletGungnir Blz

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    -See the topic
    -alpha is out
    -hype!
    -register for the key
    -less of 2 hours of wait get the key
    -install the game
    -my body is ready
    -unsure if gonna run in my old notebook
    -try start the game
    -doesnt work cuz my windows is 32bits
    -F*CK THIS!!!!

    Have fun guys. Have fun...
     
  15. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    yeah it's weirdly demanding.
     
  16. Vagplus

    Vagplus Buy a Ps Vita!

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    I feel Rising thunder is trying to appeal to moba fans.
    With the game being free to play and having 1 button skills that have cooldown.

    Not to mention they want players to think alot more strategic and manage their resources, kinda like a moba.

    Edit:Also if someone that is an esports player or just in general a moba player they could probably run the game just fine.
     
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  17. tekkaxe

    tekkaxe Member

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    It's needlessly complicated because if it was meant to only be a matter of having a cost to do the combo, then attack 1 would chain into attack 2 but only if you've got the meter to pay. If their goal was "let's make things simple" then that's the simplest way to do it. It would still be about managing your resources, as if you didn't have the meter, it wouldn't chain.

    And as for other easier combo routes for consistent meterless damage: I've only used crow so far, but you've got to take my statement in the context of the rest of my post/s- the guy can only combo meterlessly off of close standing H (using soul-pierce or whatever that move is called), and the best way to get close standing H is a jump-in. Otherwise, he has to do close M, fireball toss, FADC, close standing H.

    And as for "cancelling your medium attack into a special not into a hard"... crow cant cancel any normals into any others. If other characters can cancel, I have no idea. Can they?

    EDIT:: And the specials he can cancel to... extremely picky. I think I talk about it in another post. But it's not the damage you may have in mind ::

    And granted, I only have experience with crow and so my feedback is limited. But the guy cant do anything with his other buttons without FADC. And it's not about whether this is easier than a SF4 FADC (which it is), it's about whether this is congruent with "their goal" (presumption on my part) of making things simple.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
  18. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    Remember always saving 2 meters for Megacrash in TvC? Same deal, except now you don't have to save meters for it because it's a separate resource from everything else. Remember BBCT? Yeah.
    Lemme explain:

    A burst requires them to touch you again, to win. (It's pretty much always your best idea to save bursts for when you will die, especially if they are unbaitable, but this applies at any health. If it is possible to burst early enough to make up that burst meter that round, it's best to burst early and get two more. Etc.)
    If you have two bursts at any time, they must touch you two extra times to win. If you are at one-combo-death health and have two bursts, they must touch you 3 times to win. If your opponent does not have burst chosen, you must touch them once. In this instance it is always better to have bursts, and if you HAVE burst then this will occur EVERY ROUND because you can use a burst at critical health and force that situation.
    If a basic combo does 33% (let's assume for simplicity they do that much), that's 3 touches to kill. In order for a combo damage increase to matter for P1 attacking as much as bursts do for P2 defending, P1 would have to be able to kill in 3 - 2 = 1 touch! (If basic combos do 25% that's 4 touches, so in order for the damage boost to matter as much as burst they'd have to be able to deal 50% damage to kill you in 4 - 2 = 2 touches. And none of this takes into account that taking damage gives you back burst meter.)
    And for offense to matter it must allow them to touch you at least two extra times, because being able to avoid being touched - as with DP->jumpcancel - does not matter nearly as much as being able to escape once you ARE touched. Consider doing a wakeup DP with your resource ready: If you are blocked, you make it safer with your jump / you burst if they punish; if you hit, you are rewarded with some more damage by jumping or you keep your resource if you picked burst; and if you whiff, you are FULLY PUNISHED without burst and escape with burst. Both allow you to attempt a risky thing and avoid taking huge damage if you failed, but having burst is better in 2/3 scenarios, and just as good on hit because it will save you from one more touch later on in the round.

    This is all compounded if the burst is essentially unbaitable, because you can KNOW you're escaping rather than having to guess if you got baited, and further compounded if you can burst throws like in RT, because there is no unburstable punish for your opponent at all.

    tl;dr
    New players mostly have bad defense and practice offense/combos instead, so it will take a while for bursts to really matter...but assuming the game lasts long enough so that people develop solid defense, choosing burst and having a defensive style of play will end up hugely more powerful (and less interesting for both spectators and players). Basically: If they choose Dash and you choose Dash you're even. If they choose Dash and you choose Burst you have advantage. If they choose Burst and you choose Dash you have a disadvantage. So it is a better idea to choose burst.

    Defensive mechanics are usually considered boring, and it seems counterintuitive because MORE DAMAGE is easier to think about, but it will ultimately be much stronger to have burst and learn to play your character within the limitations of the regular systems.

    Show Spoiler
    Aside:
    Since building up burst meter over the course of the round by being hit makes bursts available near death, the best possible time to burst...it would be an interesting experiment for a game to start you off with a full burst meter and have you LOSE chunks by being hit, and if you reach zero without bursting then you can no longer burst. This would force choices between bursting at worse times and gauging whether you'll still have burst at useful times. BBCT kiiiiiinda did that but not really since it was tied to your Barrier meter which you could choose not to spend.
     
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  19. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    You say this in a lot of places; why exactly do you think reversals should be hard?
     
  20. Vagplus

    Vagplus Buy a Ps Vita!

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    So i just got my key right before i was about to go to bed.
    Played a few matches as Talos and i had 3 people rage quit. (Best moment of the day)

    Aside that the game plays really well.
    -Punishing attacks is really simple and i got the general idea of when my opponent can do his wakeup attack.
    -Backdash also seems ok to deal with.
    -Jumping in is really risky but pays off if you are Talos :p
    -Looking forward to more possibly new skills for each fighter.

    I don't think this is as serious as street fighter 4
    Also about the Kinetic stuff i still have no opinion on the matter.
     
  21. Ninja

    Ninja [Jazzy Diamonds]

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    @Vagplus if you are going to main Talos then steal my tech. cause I'm going to be Train Hopping this game like crazy if they update it and make it better. mmmmh... one last video on Talos and that's pretty much it for me on this for now.

    Edit: actually I don't care who takes my stuff. just some one take it. Talos is a beast the second he gets into grab range and has one stock of kinetic meter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2015
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  22. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

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    I'm curious about this too...

    One thing i kinda figured out is that reversals and combos in the games that i played are always opposite in the question in difficulty. In Street fighter is normally easy to mash uppercuts out of situations, and in SF4 is common to mash uppercuts and spds because in that game combos are so hard that even the better players drop from time to time that is really worth to mash a high damaging move in sf4 if you are getting hit...

    But, i think that is not the reason, there is something else and i really would like to know.
     
  23. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    yeah that makes sense. I assumed the option was in there between the two so bad players could have a crutch bursts while good players could have their resource but now I'm not so sure... Doesn't help that the bursts are totally unbaitable.

    If they go too loose with inputs and let you burn meter automatically then you'll end up doing things on accident, and I do consider dashing to be fairly simple. Crow is especially meter dependent and I think his design is more aimed at advanced players given his set up oriented play style. If you want a character with more straightforward cancels chel is a good choice, she can even combo off of lights last time I checked(?)

    p sure it's because easy reversals makes resets very weak.
     
  24. IsaVulpes

    IsaVulpes Just Throw

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    That is completely wrong, though.
     
  25. Squire Grooktook

    Squire Grooktook The wind blew all day long

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    Just looked at this and realized the player who uploaded and made the guy rage is Cagar, a close friend of mine who I met on Shmups Forum. Small world. I should go congratulate him on that when he wakes up lol.
     
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  26. CaioLugon

    CaioLugon It's an alpaca Gameplay Mod

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    Just want to point out that this name is absolutely hilarious if you speak portuguese.
     
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  27. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

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    Just want to point out that he is telling the truth. =P
     
  28. Mike_Z

    Mike_Z Defender of the Night Lab Zero

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    - Combos should be easy because you already did the interactive part, which is landing a hit at neutral, so your reward should be as easy as the game designers can make it.
    - Basic defense that doesn't come with high rewards should also be easy. Most games get this right, you don't have to tap Back within 5f of getting hit just to block the hit.
    - Reversals should be hard(er) because a reversal is not basic defense. If my opponent is skilled enough to leave only a 1 frame gap, which takes precision, then I should also have to be skilled to take advantage of that gap. I can choose to perform basic defense, which does not require timing, or I can go for more advanced defense (instant block, parry, red parry, reversal). Advanced defense should require good timing on my part, because the reward is higher and the situations that it overcomes already required good timing from my opponent to initiate. The effort required from the defender to do something besides passively defend should be at LEAST equal to, if not higher than, the effort required by the attacker to put them in that situation.
     
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  29. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

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    In Spanish too.

    I had a friend from Puerto Rico who would insult people with "cagate en tu madre".

    On topic, did everyone get friend keys?
     
  30. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

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    If the burst was more expensive I could see an argument for the dash cancels.

    I want to play with the dash cancels because they are so much fun and Crow can do ridiculous things with it, but it is true that burst is just such a massive thing to give up for it. Especially when bursts are as cheap and readily available as they are right now in Rising Thunder.

    I don't really like the choice to be honest, it would make sense if you had both all the time and burst cost the entire meter. Burst would still be better almost all the time though, but at least you could use dash cancels on occasion without playing sub-optimally by removing the chance to ever burst at all.
     
  31. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

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    I don't agree that reversals should be hard. I have no problem doing them, even in ST when I'm practiced up. But it's never seemed like good design in my mind for reversals to be something that I know my opponent is trying to do, but I'm still willing to gamble on my unsafe meaty that my opponent can't reversal/has a hard time

    I'm not really of the opinion that reversals should be easy or hard. My primary thing has always been this more or less:

    They should be unsafe on block
    They shouldn't lead to more damage after the move unless it's only on hit.
    Metered reversals like ex moves can be "safer" but still not safe (like ibukis ex kezegiri) safer because she recovers in air to throw a kunai, but still not safe and still able to be punished very hard by most of the cast, but generally requires more commitment to punish hard.
    They should reset the situation in general.
    They shouldn't be mashable.
    They shouldn't do huge damage unless metered and even then there should be less damage reward for hitting with a reversal.

    That's how I personally think of reversals.
     
  32. Tomo009

    Tomo009 Well-Known Member

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    Rising Thunder reversals ARE mashable. More mashable than P4A reversals.
     
  33. Sotherius

    Sotherius Pure Platinum!

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    I really have problem with reversals but i can't complain about how easy or hard they are (i can't do reversals at all), because in general, in fighting games you have to predict a lot of stuff and i try to react.

    For instance, if someone in skullgirls is hitting me, i have to predict when they are going to try the reset, and i have to know what he is going to try (high, low, cross up, cross under, grab, command throw), and i know that in higher levels that becomes like 3 options at the same time, i try to react to things, but is humanly impossible to react to resets in Skullgirls, for example, and is impossible to get out of a lot of situations in other fighters by reaction, and that is a thing with fighters that i have to learn.

    So i'm happy with the game where i can land my combos, because i don't care much about being able to do reversals easy or hard because they are hard to me by nature, the only thing i care really, is the enemy being able to mash out my combo if i drop them, which is something that happens a lot in Street fighter games. =P
     
  34. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

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    @Tomo009

    Yeah, that's a huge problem then that they need to work out. Fortunately with the games inherent mechanics already they have a great go to solution of any reversal attempt locking out the reversal button (putting it on cooldown) for x amount of frames whether or not the reversal came out. Timing would still be needed in many situations, but if there is a big reversal window that can be mitigated without having the old extremely annoying sf4 srk shortcut of 3,2,3,2 x n stupidity to always exit block with perfectly timed reversals every time.
     
  35. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    how is it wrong, if your reversal window is small it makes it hard to mash out of resets and combo drops.
     
  36. herbvijkl

    herbvijkl Active Member

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    if this reversal window only applies on wakeup, then you could still mash out of resets? and if not then I would think you'd simply have to make any special button press put the move on cooldown whether or not it came out. This would, though, prevent people from being able to fish for pokes while buffering a special cancel.
    Show Spoiler
    and as a talos player I would hate that :^)
     
  37. Dime

    Dime The power of BEAT EXTEND

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    Depends on the reset I would guess. I dont get most of my sg resets mashed out of because I have character specific resets that I use and I also keep my reset points fairly ambiguous... And use burst baits as well.

    I don't see why the reversal window would only apply to wakeups, it applies to general recovery from wakeup and hit/block stun in streetfighter.

    Wiff buffering is something that I generally hate in games where it takes over the footsies game... So it being gone... Or a better way to say it is it having big downsides, is a plus to me.
     
  38. Ninja

    Ninja [Jazzy Diamonds]

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    yeah... there's still... holes in this whole STUN mechanic you've got working on here Seth Killian




    and that's my last video on this whole game until it updates or gets something major changed. Ta for now.

    someone better use the stuff I made it took me 40 minutes to make it, and I don't want to think those 40 minutes were all for nothing...
     
  39. Grangach

    Grangach MUSCLE POWER

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    Stun is such a worthless mechanic. Okay so you lay a big beatdown and now you get to lay down a little more... why? What gameplay does that even serve?

    @Ninja I couldn't replicate your stun results.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  40. Spencer

    Spencer Painwheel

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    I actually like stun.

    I'm very sympathetic to why people don't like it (you get punished by taking a ton of damage and then punished again).

    But what I like about it is how it fundamentally changes the neutral the closer one gets to stun. Yata is a great example. As the stun meter builds up, one gets increasingly more desperate to land a stray hit.

    If they were to remove it, I would lose no sleep, but I don't mind it's inclusion.
     

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